Using Eminem in Women's Studies Courses

PAGE 2 OF 4

At 14:54 26/02/01 -0600, Todd Onderdonk wrote:
> >>point being: none of that is REALLY the issue here, and we are doing a
> >>disservice to students if we allow it to be played out in our classrooms
>
>I would disagree--Eminem presents a great teaching opportunity, but many of
>the standard responses to his music present a real pedagogical dilemma. The
>problem is not just that Eminem's lyrics are remarkably self-conscious and
>slippery as to his "real" position, but that he scores comic points by
>being able to provoke the outrage that our teacherly seriousness (however
>grounded that seriousness is in real tragedies and inequities) exemplifies.

The discussion about Eminem brings to mind the reaction to Andrew Dice Clay
some years ago.
But it also raises a musicological question which I hope you won't take as
being completely silly.  I was reminded of some of the Celtic and British
folk songs like the Highwayman, or Ruben Blades's  "Pedro Navaja" or even
the Threepenny Opera's "Mack the Knife" later popularized by Bobby
Darin.  In many folk songs, murderers and other abusers of women are
glorified.  Does Eminem be seen as having a place in that tradition; i.e.,
as a storyteller rather than a Pied Piper inciting his listeners to
violence against women.

I have heard his lyrics; they are repugnant to me, but I am wondering if
anyone has written about musical storytelling in this way.


*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
Rosa Maria Pegueros, J.D., Ph.D.   pegueros    AT    uri.edu
Department of History             217C Washburn Hall
    & Women's Studies Program    Phone:(401) 874-4092
80 Upper College Road, Suite 3
University of Rhode Island
Kingston, RI 02881              Fax  :(401) 874-2595

"When my enemies stop hissing,
I will know I am slipping."
         --Maria Callas

>From: "Dra. Rosa Maria Pegueros" <rpe2836u    AT    POSTOFFICE.URI.EDU>

>some years ago.
>But it also raises a musicological question which I hope you won't take as
>being completely silly.  I was reminded of some of the Celtic and British
>folk songs like the Highwayman, or Ruben Blades's  "Pedro Navaja" or even
>the Threepenny Opera's "Mack the Knife" later popularized by Bobby
>Darin.  In many folk songs, murderers and other abusers of women are
>glorified.  Does Eminem be seen as having a place in that tradition; i.e.,
>as a storyteller rather than a Pied Piper inciting his listeners to
>violence against women.
>
>I have heard his lyrics; they are repugnant to me, but I am wondering if
>anyone has written about musical storytelling in this way.

Me?  <smile>  I think your point is an *excellent* one, and is part of my
own current research project.  I would be very much interested in hearing
other people's responses, but I myself am using The Singer of Tales's
research on bardic conventions.  To go completely out on a lim, I heard
Sanjay Subramanian speak on pre-modern historical texts in India, and he
said something about those subjects that were described in entirely
non-mythologically-inflected ways, and they were pretty much, it seemed to
me and perhaps erroneously, the same kind of gruesome murder stories that
gave rise to folk ballads and National Enquirer headlines.

Just a year or two the Christian Right staged a
pretty large demonstration against an
appearance in my area by Marilyn Manson.  Since that time
Eminem has appeared on the scene.  I'm not sure
Marilyn can now get arrested.  Outrage has supplanted
outrage. I'm beyond reacting to what I consider
a load of hype and salesmanship.  I was appalled
first that impressionistic kids were buying the symbolic
obscenity of an Elton John-Eminem appearance.  It
was the "news controversy" driving the Grammy
ratings last Wednesday.  Then the horrible Lynne
Cheney joins the fray.  Mrs. Cheney should see to
her husband's health.  I don't think he is going to
be with us long. Poor Marilyn Manson.

Mike Rice
write:mrice    AT    elroynet.com

>From: Todd Onderdonk <toddo    AT    MAIL.UTEXAS.EDU>

>The point is that uninformed condemnations tend to damn the condemner.
>Teachers that condescend in discussing Eminem's songs, or who do not take
>him seriously enough to acknowledge and analyze the strategic (rhetorical)
>nature of almost everything he says, or who are blind to the self-conscious
>masculine self-deprecation that laces his invective, or who do not bother
>to contextualize his songs within the generic conventions of hip hop and
>rock and roll, risk their own ethos and sell short the valid feminist
>arguments that can and should be made against such speech. Eminem gives us
>a great opportunity to discuss in the classroom cultural attitudes and
>media moves that he only exemplifies--he didn't invent them. It seems to me
>that extending some interest and understanding to views we might disagree
>with is a precondition for any dialogue to be effective.

I think this is extremely well-said.

I wrote a response earlier today to some of the points made by others on
this list, and it bounced because it exceeded the line limit.  If anyone's
interested in seeing it, I put it up at:
http://www.malar.net/nativetongue/eminem.html

Todd...

What advice would you give me, a high school social studies teacher who
discusses this subject with junior and senior age kids in women studies and
US History?  I am curious.

Up until now I have have been an observer of the posts dealing with Eminem,
and most certainly consider myself a feminist.  Each of these arguments
being made about Eminem are *very* important and valid.  I don't believe any
one of them is an insult to feminists, but I do beleive it is incredibly
important to use them in tandem.  However, the tendency I see is to embrace
one or the other.  Yet personally I believe none of the arguments alone can
address the full picture of the social importance of Eminem's music.  I
don't think we could successfully be analytical without incorporating all of
them.

Absolutely it is important to understand Eminem's social context, the
context of hip hop culture, and his motivations and intended meanings in his
songs.  Of course there are very savvy young adults who use his songs as
social critique, and who take from the music a better understandings of the
horror of violence against women.  However, intent is important but not
everything.  One cannot also fully understand Eminem without looking at the
*multiple* ways in which he is interpreted, not just by feminists, but by
male and female young adults.  These multiple interpretations are just as
significant as understanding the context in which his work is created and
his intent.  I've had students who love him because they see him as critical
of "patriarchy," students who like his music, but believe his use of "hot"
topics to get media press is repugnant, and even students (4 this semester,
including one female) who believe that homosexuality is disgusting and the
downfall of society and laud Emenim as a hero for being brave enough to say
so.

I hope any discussion of Eminem would include aspects of each of these great
arguments when trying to understand the social context and impact of Eminem.
I sincerely appreciate all of the thought and passion that has gone into
them.

Lea Pickard
LP8155    AT    albany.edu