Using Eminem in Women's Studies Courses

The following discussion about using Eminem's music in Women's
Studies classes and about feminist opinions of Eminem took place on
WMST-L in February/March 2001.  Because of its length, the
discussion has been divided into four parts.  For additional WMST-L 
files now available on the Web, see the WMST-L File Collection.

PAGE 1 OF 4

The following information comes from:
Janet Dodd <JDodd515   AT   aol.com>
Assist. Adj. Prof., Sociology,
Johnson County Community College,
Overland Park KS
Ph.D. student, Social Sciences, Syracuse University


It was posted to another list that was discussing Eminem and is shared with
Janet's permission.  Please contact Janet for follow up; she is not on this
list.

Kate Waits
U. of Tulsa College of Law

***************************
[Posted by Janet shortly before the Grammy's]

For my own little bit of activism, I'm going to use the lyrics to Eminem's
two songs about murdering his wife (those are the one's I know about) in my
Soc Problems course this semester.  Students work in groups and bring in
music that constructs some aspect of a social problem.  I'm going to use his
work for the demonstration of what I want the students to do.  I'll use his
work as an example of the kind of thinking that batterer's do when
rationalizing their use of violence against women (and some men), how this
type of thinking reveals linkages between hetero-masculinity and violence,
and how these rationalizations have their roots in historical constructions
of what men and women just "naturally" are.  Then we'll look at the
institutional connections...how this type of thinking has been sanctioned by
church and state legitimating only particular forms of family, how the
struggles for meaning that go on around and about any "social problem" are
always "gendered" in multiple ways on muliple levels, and include some of
the debates about whether his music should be showcased on national awards
shows.

  Then, we'll talk about the impact of his "music" on thinking that goes on
about men's violence against women both inside and outside of intimate
relationships.

If we can't beat 'em, maybe we can use 'em.

Janet D.

**************

[When asked to report on how the assignment turned out, Janet responded:]

I've used this assignment before.  Eminem's music actually came to my
attention through a student presentation last semester.  The group that
presented used his lyrics to demonstrate exactly what I outlined in my email.
  There ensued a lively discussion by class members on whether this was
"good"  music or not as well as what the "artist" meant to convey by
creating these songs.  Since we had spent in an inordinate amount of time
(or so I thought) talking about masculinity, it was truly a teaching moment
when this
particular interpretation was offered.

Janet D.

[In response to the preceding message]:

Something about this just doesn't sit right with me.  First, why are "music"
and "artist" in quotes?  Secondly, I have to say that I suspect that only
when "(those are the one's I know about)" can one can uncritically use
either Kim or Just the Two of Us as a psychoanalytical case study.  I mean
to say that so confident a reading of a work of art is only possible when
its status as a work of art is completely elided.  I for one would be far
more interested in seeing these works located as part of Eminem's effort
across his oeuvre to satirize the romantic conventions of pop music. (This
should be obvious even to people outside of hiphop in his sample of Just the
Two of Us.)  It's a sartirical impulse that has, as with Wilde or Saki, a
sexist tinge, but spousal abuse qua spousal abuse isn't the point.

It may well be that students in their presentations demonstrate exactly what
the teacher has outlined, but I'd like to see richer, more interesting
readings.  You may find for instance, that within his artistic context,
Eminem takes a strikingly dissident position on the legitimation of
"particular forms of the family," or for that matter, on the constitution of
masculinity.

I think it's fairly obvious that Eminem is sexist, but to press gang his
work into service within a feminist argument, and at the same time to do his
work a disservice, unnecessarily weakens the credibility of a feminist
agenda that I too share.  Translation:  I have spent wayyyyy too many hours
defending Eminem to middle-aged white feminists and middle-aged white
feminists to people who have heard n>2 Eminem songs.

I thought some of you using Eminem in class might be interested in
this perspective.

It parallels the discussion of the social construction of violent
masculinity in "Tough Guise"- Katz's video available through
www.mediaed.org


>----- Original Message -----
>From: <JacksonKTZ   AT   aol.com>
>
>Sent: Monday, February 19, 2001 2:59 PM

>
>
>> When You're Asked About Eminem
>> By Jackson Katz
>>
>> Copyright 2001
>>
>> (NOTE: The following are brief discussions about the gender and sexual
>> politics of superstar rap artist Marshall Mathers, aka Eminem.  They are
>> intended to provide ideas for sound bites and other responses by battered
>> women's advocates, anti-rape activists, activists against gay and lesbian
>> bashing, and others who are opposed to the Grammys honoring Mathers and
>> allowing him to perform on the February 21st international telecast.)
>>
>> 1. Eminem's fans argue that his raps about raping, torturing, and
>murdering
>> women are not meant to be taken literally.  "Just because we listen to the
>> music doesn't mean we're gonna go out and rape and murder women.  We know
>> it's just a song."  But thoughtful critics of Eminem do not make the
>argument
>> that the clear and present danger of his lyrics lie in the possibility
>that
>> some unstable young man will go out and imitate in real life what the
>artist
>> is rapping about.  (While possible, this is highly unlikely.)
>>
>> Rather, one of the most damaging aspects of Eminem's violent misogyny and
>> homophobia is how normal and matter-of-fact this violence comes to seem.
>> Rapping and joking about sex crimes has the effect of desensitizing people
>to
>> the real pain and trauma suffered by victims and their loved ones.  The
>> process of desensitization to violence through repeated exposure in the
>media
>> has been studied for decades.  Among the effects: young men who have
>> watched/listened to excessive amounts of fictionalized portrayals of men's
>> violence against women in mainstream media and pornography have been shown
>to
>> be more callous toward victims, less likely to believe their accounts of
>> victimization, more willing to believe they were "asking for it," and less
>> likely to intervene in instances of "real-life" violence.
>>
>> 2.  Marshall Mathers is a bully with a microphone.  His public persona -
>as
>> well as some well-publicized incidents in his "private" life - fit many of
>> the predictable characteristics of men who batter.  Especially the
>folklore
>> about his famously difficult childhood.  Narcissistic batterers often
>paint
>> themselves as the true victims.  In fact, many of his young fans, male and
>> female, reference his abusive family life to explain his rage.  Batterer
>> intervention counselors hear this excuse every day from men who are in
>> court-mandated programs for beating their girlfriends and wives.  "I had a
>> tough childhood.  I have a right to be angry," or "She was the real
>> aggressor.  She pushed my buttons and I just reacted."  The counselors'
>> typical answer: "It is not right or ok that you were abused as a child.
>You
>> deserve our empathy and support.  But you have no right to pass on your
>pain
>> to other people."
>>
>> 3. Eminem's defenders - including a number of prominent music critics --
>> like to argue that his ironic wit and dark sense of humor are lost on many
>of
>> his detractors, who supposedly "don't get it."  This is what his
>> predominantly young fans are constantly being told: that some people don't
>> like the likeable "Em" because they don't get him, the personae he's
>created,
>> his outrageously transgressive humor.  In comparison, his fans are said to
>be
>> much more hip, since they're in on the joke.  One way to respond to this
>is
>> to say "We get it, alright.  We understand that lyrics are usually not
>meant
>> to be taken literally.  And we think we have a good sense of humor.  We
>just
>> don't think it's funny for men to to be joking aggressively about
>murdering
>> and raping women, and assaulting gays and lesbians.  Just like we don't
>think
>> that it's funny for white people to be making racist jokes at the expense
>of
>> people of color.  This sort of 'hate humor' is not just harmless fun.
>> Millions of American girls and women are assaulted by men each year.
>> According to the U.S. surgeon general, battering is the leading cause of
>> injury to women.  We're seeing a large increase around the country in teen
>> relationship violence. Gay-bashing is a serious problem all over the
>country.
>>  Sorry if we don't find that funny."
>>
>> 4. Eminem has been skillfully marketed as a "rebel" to whom many young
>people
>> - especially white boys -- can relate.  But what exactly is he rebelling
>> against?  Powerful women who oppress weak and vulnerable men?  Omnipotent
>> gays and lesbians who make life a living hell for straight people?
>Eminem's
>> misogyny and homophobia, far from being "rebellious," are actually
>extremely
>> traditional and conservative.  As a straight white man, Marshall Mathers
>> would actually be much more of a rebel if he rapped about supporting
>women's
>> equality and embracing gay and lesbian civil rights.  Instead, he is only
>a
>> rebel in a very narrow sense of that word.  Since he offends a lot of
>> parents, kids can "rebel" against their parents' wishes by listening to
>him,
>> buying his cd's, etc.  The irony is that by buying into Eminem's clever
>"bad
>> boy" act, they are just being obedient, predictable consumers.  ("If you
>want
>> to express your rebellious side, we have just the right product for you!
>The
>> Marshall Mathers LP!  Come get your Slim Shady!)  It's rebellion as a
>> purchasable commodity.
>>
>> But if you focus on the contents of his lyrics, the "rebellion" is empty.
>> Context is everything.  If you're a "rebel," it matters who you are and
>what
>> you're rebelling against.  The KKK are rebels, too.  They boast about it
>all
>> the time.  They fly the Confederate (rebel) flag.  But most cultural
>> commentators wouldn't nod approvingly to the KKK as models of adolescent
>> rebellion for American youth because the *content* of what they're
>advocating
>> is so repugnant.  (And Eminem would be dropped from MTV playlists and lose
>> his record contract immediately if he turned his lyrical aggression away
>from
>> women and gays and onto people of color.) Is it possible that when
>> "responsible" journalists and other entertainers embrace Eminem as a
>"rebel,"
>> it says something about *them,* and their gender and sexual politics,
>> including how seriously they regard the problems of rape, wife-murder, and
>> young men's violence against gays and lesbians?
>>
>> 5. Some of Eminem's admirers argue that his detractors don't respond well
>to
>> the anti-social disdain and nihilism -- found in parts of young, white,
>> working-class culture -- that the now multi-millionaire Eminem captures so
>> skillfully in his raps.  There might be some truth to this.  But it is
>also
>> true that the music, television, and movie industries are constantly
>> developing marketing strategies to appeal to the lucrative markets of
>young
>> consumers of all socioeconomic classes.  In recent years, one of the most
>> successful of these strategies involves praising young consumers for how
>> media-savvy they are, especially in contrast with their parents and other
>> older people.  Then, as the young consumers absorb the props for their
>> sophistication, they are sold cds, movies, and myriad other products
>whose
>> sensibilities supposedly prove how "savvy " their purchasers really are.
>> This process would be laughable were it not for the fact that some of the
>> products (e.g. slasher movies, Eminem) often simply reinforce existing
>> cultural prejudices and animuses.
>>
>> What this process makes painfully clear is the crying need for more media
>> literacy education in the schools.  Young people need to be given analytic
>> tools to understand the ways in which they are being manipulated by a
>> consumer culture that doesn't care about them or their struggles to lead
>> rewarding lives, free from abuse and violence.  Wealthy corporations in
>the
>> consumer culture, including the record companies that have profited
>> handsomely from Eminem, only care about young people's money.  To them,
>it's
>> all about the Benjamins (the money). The rest of us who care about kids
>need
>> to do a better job of making that clear.
>>
>> Jackson Katz is an anti-violence activist/educator.
>>
Molly Dragiewicz
Women's Studies and Cultural Studies
George Mason University

mdragiew   AT   gmu.edu

> >> 4. Eminem has been skillfully marketed as a "rebel" to whom many young
> >people
> >> - especially white boys -- can relate.  But what exactly is he
>rebelling
> >> against?


I think think anyone who doesn't have the answer to this question has little
credibility in discussing Eminen.  And for the record, I'm a not-quite-young
woman of color.

> >> 5. Some of Eminem's admirers argue that his detractors don't respond
>well
> >to
> >> the anti-social disdain and nihilism -- found in parts of young, white,
> >> working-class culture -- that the now multi-millionaire Eminem captures
>so
> >> skillfully in his raps.

What exactly does his now being a multimillionaire have to do with anything?
  Does the fact that he is a multimillionaire somehow undermine his
crediblity in speaking out of the working class culture he grew up with?
For that matter, Just the Two of Us was written before Slim Shady EP much
less LP, and though I'm not enitrely certain, I think Kim was also written
earlier.  But it's precisely this kind of smear tactic that I find so
repulsive coming from feminist organizers.

Nevermind "in his raps," which just makes me giggle.

To me the bottom line is this:  is Eminem sexist?  Sure thing.  Is he sexist
because he has written scenarios in which he kills his girlfriend?  That's
the least of it.  Should feminist groups be engaging with his sexism?  Sure.
  Is smearing him in every which way that comes to mind and creating
strawmen out of his lyrics going to be at all effective in reaching him or
people like him?  I don't think so.  I think it simply ends up confirming
the impression that it's the same elites who have never gave a damn about
him eating welfare cheese who get riled up when he says "fag" on record.  So
then Eminem gets even more intent on epatering bourgeois propriety through
slurs against women or gays.  NOw, it's unfair for women's rights to turn
into a metaphor in a conversation between two groups of men, but it requires
a different response than just trashing Eminem.  The point is for feminists
to show that it's precisely the people who kept him eating welfare cheese
who institutionalized homophobia and sexism.

One way to start, I think is to behave as we owe him some respect, as a
human being, to his own oppression, and as an artist, to the complexity of
his creations.  He can be pretty juvenile in his epatering, but Eminem is
also in many ways subversive of "heteromasculinity."  Seeing this, though,
would require reading his work from the knowing not only n>2 of his songs,
but something about hiphop more generally.

Svenathi's response to this is probably the first I've read regarding
eminem that I've agreed with. His music provides an opportunity to talk
about domestic violence in a complex way in women's studies classes, but
also provides a means to think about representations of working-class
masculinity and anger in-depth. Tough Guise is VERY weak in relation to
this issue and shows an incredible ignorance of rap music and hip hop
culture that to me (and many of my students) is quite laughable.

In an attempt to provoke a more thoughtful discussion I have had students
read "Fly Girls, Bitches, and Hos: Thoughts from a Hip-hop Feminist"
published in Social Text (although I can't remember the author), and an
excerpt from the final chapter of Robin Kelley's "Race Rebels" Another
useful musical example of domestic strife can be found in the "Bobby
Digital" cd by RZA from the Wu-Tang Clan. It might also be useful to
connect contemporary hip hop with a geneology of African-American music.
Bessie Smith, for example, writes and sings about domestic
violence, and her movie "St. Louis Blues," is an excellent discussion
tool, especially since it uses many of the visual and narrative tropes
that are familiar to contemporary popular music.

Jacqueline Ellis
Bates College
jellis   AT   bates.edu

>I think think anyone who doesn't have the answer to this question has little
credibility in >discussing Eminen.  And for the record, I'm a not-quite-young
woman of color.

(snip here)

>What exactly does his now being a multimillionaire have to do with anything?
 But it's > precisely this kind of smear tactic that I find so repulsive
coming from feminist > organizers.

(snip here)

Which "feminists"?  Lynne Cheney?

>Nevermind "in his raps," which just makes me giggle.

(snip here)

>  Should feminist groups be engaging with his sexism?  Sure. Is smearing him
in every > which way that comes to mind and creating strawmen out of his
lyrics going to be at all > effective in reaching him or people like him?  I
don't think so.  I think it simply ends up > confirming the impression that
it's the same elites who have never gave a damn about
> him eating welfare cheese who get riled up when he says "fag" on record.

(snip here)

>One way to start, I think is to behave as we owe him some respect, as a
>human being, to his own oppression, and as an artist, to the complexity of
>his creations.  He can be pretty juvenile in his epatering, but Eminem is
>also in many ways subversive of "heteromasculinity."  Seeing this, though,
>would require reading his work from the knowing not only n>2 of his songs,
>but something about hiphop more generally.


I don't know anything about hiphop and I don't know much about Eminem, but I
am under the impression he can be pretty juvenile.  Also the only "rap" of
his I know is "Stan" which was on the Grammys.  There wasn't really anything
sexist in it-- except he did say "shut up bitch" and had his pregnant
girlfriend tied up in the trunk of his car.

Personally, I plug into Guns N Roses for my male rage.  G n R don't rail
against women, they rail against "bitches," '80s style.  Axl Rose doesn't
want to kill his girlfriend (who was Erin Everly, by the way). Of course,
when the audience snapped that picture of him in concert and he said "thanks
to the lameass security, I'm going home," slammed down his mike, and strode
off stage, I just had to laugh.  I mean, where does he think he's gonna go?


Helene T. McGrath
Liberal Studies
Ohio State University

I've kept quiet for the most part on this list mostly because I don't have a
fancy degree nor do I normally know what I'm talking about.  However, I'm
ending my silence on behalf of Eminem.  I understand that many feel he needs
respect because he's an artist and because he is expressing himself.  From
some of the past posts, I've been told, as someone who finds him appalling
and insulting, to keep my panties on.

I disagree.

It seems that some people think that Eminem has every right as an "artist"
to discuss things he feels are worth discussing.  However, having an entire
song (KIM) on how he slits his girlfriend's throat is not showing that he is
an "artist."  In fact, it's showing that he is a homicidal, or clearly a
"close" homicidal, maniac.  If ANY of you have heard this song, I guarantee
you would agree with me.  I've had a few students in my women's studies
class compare "Kim" with the Dixie Chicks' song, "Goodbye Earl."   The men
in my class seem to think that the basis behind the Dixie Chicks' song is
comparable with "Kim."  An interesting point but nonetheless one I don't
agree with.  Eminem is a menace to this society.  To hear kids in my high
school classroom praise him as a genius turns my stomach.  I don't care if
he hates women or if he hates homosexuals...he has every right to his
opinion...but when he writes songs, directed toward a young audience,
showing violent acts against these groups...that's when I feel it is wrong.

This post isn't articulate nor does it make as much sense as I wish it
could.  I just felt it needed to be said.

On 26 Feb 2001, at 9:54, Jacqueline Ellis wrote:
> In an attempt to provoke a more thoughtful discussion I have had
> students read "Fly Girls, Bitches, and Hos: Thoughts from a Hip-
hop
> Feminist" published in Social Text (although I can't remember the
> author)

The essay you refer to is also contained within:

When Chickenheads Come Home to Roost: My Life as A Hip Hop
Feminist by Joan Morgan. From amazon.com "Her book chronicles
the quest to fulfill that need through a series of essays ranging from
social issues like the blatant misogyny of rap music ("From Fly-girls
to Bitches and Hos"), the mythic stereotype of the strong black
woman ("Strongblackwomen"), and the epidemic of single
motherhood in the black community ("Babymother") to wickedly
witty takes on her own life ("Lovenotes," "Chickenhead Envy").  "


Rebecca Tolley-Stokes
Non-print media cataloger
Sherrod Library
East Tennessee State University
Johnson City, TN
423.439.4365
fax)423.439.4410
tolleyst   AT   etsu.edu

Robert Christgau, best-known as the pop critic for The Village Voice (and
one of the most outspoken writers when it comes to slamming sexism in
popular music) has a fine article on Eminem in The Los Angeles Times,
entitled "Missing the Point of the Many Masks," at: http://
www.calendarlive.com/top/1,1419,L-LATimes-Grammys-0!ArticleDetail-22014,00.html

It includes this passage: "It's stupid or deceitful to argue that 'Kim', in
which you hear [Eminem] slitting his wife's throat, is an incitement to
murder.  The wrong listener can misconstrue anything.  But the unbearably
raw pain of Slim's/Eminem's/Marshall's drunken rage, misery and insanity is
intended to make him an anti-role model and render 'Kim' a far more
socially responsible work than 'Janie Runaway.'  The teenagers know what
the moral arbiters don't understand."

It may also be worth recalling my post of several months ago, pointing out
that Eminem won Cosmogirl's competiton for "The Sexiest Musician Alive,"
with some 23 million out of 60 million total votes cast.  Apparently, tens
of millions of younger women don't find Eminem's "misogyny" an insuperable
obstacle -- far from it.

Best wishes,
Adam Jones

Adam Jones, Profesor/Investigador, Divisi=n de Estudios Internacionales
Centro de Investigaci=n y Docencia Econ=micas (CIDE), Mexico City
ajones   AT   dis1.cide.mx
Executive Director, Gendercide Watch <http://www.gendercide.org>
Personal website: <http://adamjones.freeservers.com>

hitler was a genius too--also expressed the perspective of a lot of
working class germans with legitimate gripes and addressed "real" social

and economic issues, AND was a brilliant lyricist
(rhetoritician?)--so?...

point being: none of that is REALLY the issue here, and we are doing a
disservice to students if we allow it to be played out in our classrooms

that way...

debbie <louis   AT   umbc.edu>

adam jones:
> It may also be worth recalling my post of several months ago, pointing out
> that Eminem won Cosmogirl's competiton for "The Sexiest Musician Alive,"
> with some 23 million out of 60 million total votes cast.  Apparently, tens
> of millions of younger women don't find Eminem's "misogyny" an insuperable
> obstacle -- far from it.

and this proves what, exactly?

sarah cardin
portland state university

>>point being: none of that is REALLY the issue here, and we are doing a
>>disservice to students if we allow it to be played out in our classrooms

I would disagree--Eminem presents a great teaching opportunity, but many of
the standard responses to his music present a real pedagogical dilemma. The
problem is not just that Eminem's lyrics are remarkably self-conscious and
slippery as to his "real" position, but that he scores comic points by
being able to provoke the outrage that our teacherly seriousness (however
grounded that seriousness is in real tragedies and inequities) exemplifies.
The key is that Eminem has learned to control the discourse about his music
and image in a way that positions him to his listeners as the smartest game
in town. The Marshall Mathers Album very savvily begins with a long series
of "outrageous" taunts and threats that serves one chief purpose: to
aggravate his critics. He thus incites the discourse that condemns him with
all deliberation. Why? Is he dumb? Lashing out in blind rage? No--its
elementary rhetoric, folks. Like many rappers (and rockers) he builds
masculine ethos through the stance of social transgression, the
conventional rock and roll/hip hop move against orthodoxy that differs from
like moves by Elvis or Johnny Rotten or Dr. Dre only in its target: the new
orthodoxy of white, middle-class, liberal morality. He thus positions
himself for our students as, unlike them, master of his environment, able
to satirically push the buttons of the frowning and humorless adult world.
Though in my experience students generally volunteer that he is
indefensible, when they leave the classroom they still listen and laugh
because he is extremely entertaining and seems one step ahead of everybody.

The point is that uninformed condemnations tend to damn the condemner.
Teachers that condescend in discussing Eminem's songs, or who do not take
him seriously enough to acknowledge and analyze the strategic (rhetorical)
nature of almost everything he says, or who are blind to the self-conscious
masculine self-deprecation that laces his invective, or who do not bother
to contextualize his songs within the generic conventions of hip hop and
rock and roll, risk their own ethos and sell short the valid feminist
arguments that can and should be made against such speech. Eminem gives us
a great opportunity to discuss in the classroom cultural attitudes and
media moves that he only exemplifies--he didn't invent them. It seems to me
that extending some interest and understanding to views we might disagree
with is a precondition for any dialogue to be effective.


Todd Onderdonk
University of Texas at Austin