Grading and Writing Instruction

PAGE 3 OF 3
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Gotta throw some cents in from the adult literacy corner.
 
20% of adults in America are functionally illiterate.  That means they're
reading and writing below high school level.
 
The economy is great, but people who can't read/write over ninth grade stay
stuck in poorly paid, deadend jobs.  A great number of them are women.
 
Cincinnati's  paper's classifieds sections is three sections long right now
partly because there are more highly demanding jobs than people to fill
them.
 
However you can teach people to write, DO IT!!!!!  Don't fool yourself that
spelling, grammar, and form don't matter.  Most of the people who write in
their jobs deal MOSTLY with form -- letters, memos, reports, proposals,
documentations, outcomes.  THAT'S what "real world" writing mostly is, and
you bet accuracy matters!  PLEASE don't be so precious as teachers about
"process" and whatnot that you wimp out on being tough on this stuff,
because it IS, IS, IS what matters in the real world.  If we teach students
to produce clean, concise, clear pieces, we'll be doing them, their future
bosses and future clients a tremendous service.
 
Thanks,
 
Pamela Kemner
College Instructor of women's studies and English
Executive Director, Literacy Council of Clermont and Brown Counties
===========================================================================

On Wed, 31 Mar 1999, Martha Charlene Ball wrote:
 
> Actually, the word *diction* has three meanings, according to Webster's:
> one is "verbal description"; another is "choice
> of words especially with regard to correctness, clearness, or
> effectiveness"; and a third is a) "vocal expression:  enunciation" and b)
> "pronunciation and enunciation of words in singing."
>
> Therefore, using *diction* in the sense of *enunciation* is far from
> ignorant.
>
I received several private replies some of which began with actually. My
point was not that Webster does not recognize that usage, and I am well
aware that in music diction is used often in that sense.  My point is that
the tendency to obscure historical meanings with needless extensions does
not help in efforts toward precision.  Webster also recognizes that inply
and infer are used interchangably which deprives us of a nice, in the
original meaning of that word, distinction. Ultimately language is
determined by usage, I was just happy to see that the original meaning
of diction was not lost. The OED, by the way, does not give examples of
diction meaning anything other than proper selection of words.
 
 
Wm W. Pendleton
Department of Sociology
Emory University
Atlanta, Ga. 30322
socwwp  @  emory.edu
404 727-7524
===========================================================================

I must object to the suggestion that being "process-oriented" is
"wimping out." The "process" I am stressing is the process of THOUGHT
and its expression. Mechanics and style, though they are mighty
important, surely, not to mention footnotes, have absolutely no
relevance if the student cannot write a simple English sentence. And
many of them simply can not do it. When was the last time you asked your
classes to name the parts of speech? I dare you!
 
Yes, many adults are functionally illiterate. This is a failure of the
primary educational systems (combined with social and economic
stressors, to be sure), not the college or university. It is not my job
to teach college students to read, though I am often shocked at how
little many of them understand of what they _do_ read, and of the words
they put on the page.
 
One of my "other" jobs (since I have to combine different things to make
a living) is copyediting for a scholarly journal. You'd be surprised how
many of those "educated" folks, so-called "scholars" can put a footnote
together, but can't, to save their lives, write a decent English
sentence. It is horrifying.
 
To be able to write a sentence, a business letter, or a simple essay
requires the same skill: the ability to form a thought and express it.
This is what I mean by teaching writing. And it is a process, one that
requires a great deal of coaxing, cajoling, and convincing. It isn't a
matter of memorizing forms and patterns. It is hard work--for them, and
for the instructor. And they aren't used to it, and they have to
overcome huge internal hurdles to be able to get from point A to point
B, mostly because they are unprepared.
 
Regarding graduate students and their ability to write, we all know from
reading graduate student papers that many of these students have yet to
learn to express a thought, too. But they can sure put those footnotes
together now, can't they!
 
Kit
--
Kit McChesney | University Writing Program | CB 359
University of Colorado at Boulder | Boulder, CO 80309-0359
mcchesn  @  stripe.colorado.edu | http://stripe.colorado.edu/~mcchesn/
 
Publisher/Editor | Circles Magazine | 1705 14th Street, Suite 326
Boulder, CO 80302-6321 | tel 303.245.8815 | fax 303.245.8816
circles  @  indra.com | http://www.circlesmagazine.com
===========================================================================

G. NeSmith responds to extracts from my post:
 
 
LP:
>When students see a terrible grade on
a paper,they sometimes just toss it in discouragement without giving it any
serious attention, and sometimes with a bad attitude (their opportunity to
say "FY" back to us --of course it only hurts them).  But they don't
learn.
 
GN:
> They don't learn, either, when teachers don't sanction work that doesn't meet
> very clearly specified requirements. IF there are no reall sanctions, all they
> learn is that they can get away with not learning.
>
 
 
Did I say there were no sanctions?  I believe that refusing to grade
their papers until they are done properly is a sanction.  Essentially,
they get worse than an "F"--they get a "0"--unless the work is done
properly, and I don't waste my time grading the same work more than once.
(Not that I consider the direction of genuine revision a waste of time.
It's what I'm here to do.  I'm talking here about a state of work which
failed to conform to the most basic of rules, or is so far below what
I expect that I don't feel that productive revision can take place.)
 
 
 
LP:
 >>When students give me a paper where some aspect--say documentation--is
so abominable that it is clear that they just don't "get it," I believe in
giving them at least one more chance to "get it." <<
 
 
GN:
> And what do you do when the end of the term comes and they still haven't
> "gotten it"? Do you give them an incomplete?
 
 
Did you stop reading at that point?  I very specifically answered that
question.  I gave the three bases on which their revision would
receive an "F," and the circumstances under which they get a 0.  I
don't appreciate having my ideas distorted in order for someone
else to use them as straw men for their own arguments.
 
 
GN (not to me, but I found it relevant)::
 
> If in the "real world" a boss gives them an instruction that
> requires attention to specific details in those instructions, and they ignore
> those specific details, what do you suppose will happen? It's not simply a
> matter of knowing how to do citations a particular style! It's a matter of
> paying attention!
>
 
  Yes, it's difficult to teach critical thinking without attention to
detail.  I hope that your audiences grant attention to yours.
 
Linda Payne
University of South Alabama
lpayne  @  jaguar1.usouthal.edu
=========================================================================

If we can convince students that REVISION is 99 percent of what real
writing is, we've won the battle! I find that many students are unaware
that a good, or even acceptable, piece of writing does not spring fully
formed from noggin' to paper! We will often show students just how many
revisions are required to get from an idea to a fully formed final work.
Not to sound like Carl Sagan, but ... dozens and dozens and dozens. They
hardly believe it when they see it, but it's real. Maybe showing them
how much work it takes to get to there from here would be instructive.
Show them your own work! Why not?
 
Just yesterday, the first day back from Spring Break, a student barked
from the back of my class, "Hey, have we gotten any grades in here yet?"
and then she continued, "Not that I care, really, but ... you know how
students are, they like grades!" And I answered, "Not yet, but you'll
see them shortly!" And I keep them waiting for the grades so I can keep
them moving through the writing itself. Otherwise, as soon as that grade
appears on the paper, the process stops. They quit! But the more
revisions I can coax them into doing, (and we usually have four or five
per paper that are "official") the better their writing will be. It's
almost guaranteed.
 
Practice makes perfect, or at least, near-perfect, or maybe just
adequate!
 
Kit
--
Kit McChesney | University Writing Program | CB 359
University of Colorado at Boulder | Boulder, CO 80309-0359
mcchesn  @  stripe.colorado.edu | http://stripe.colorado.edu/~mcchesn/
 
Publisher/Editor | Circles Magazine | 1705 14th Street, Suite 326
Boulder, CO 80302-6321 | tel 303.245.8815 | fax 303.245.8816
circles  @  indra.com | http://www.circlesmagazine.com
===========================================================================

I agree with "Show them your own work."  I bring my own messy drafts.  It
does prove that writing isn't a once through activity.  It also reinforces
that you know something about writing in the real world.
 
And I do like the revision writing.  Students get involved in their subjects.
They start talking about approach and finding supporting evidence.  I think
they finally feel they are working on something real and solid.  They are
making themselves the class expert on their subjects.  That carries a certain
responsibility.
 
I've printed some of these posts to take to class.  It makes the work more
important to realize that so many people are deeply involved in the work of
writing.  Two friends are writing dissertations -- I share their stories with
my classes.
 
Marilyn Grotzky
===========================================================================

<<  Regarding your use of "grammer" below--you're making a point, right?
 (I'm sure "wirtten" was just the kind "slip of the finger" which plagues us
 all!) >>
 
LOL!!  Thanks for the benefit of the doubt, but while "wirtten" was a finger
slip, "grammer" is one of those words I notoriously spell incorrectly on a
regular basis. Spelling is not my strong suit...very frustrating.  This is one
reason why provide my students with writing and analysis guidelines; knowing
my own weaknesses makes me very conscious that these are people learning how
to learn, so I feel obligated to assist them with tools to do so.  My reliance
on Spell check shows up when I go on-line because email has yet to add a spell
check feature; alas, my weakness is on display for the whole cyber community.
OH NO!  Put my fingers in my eyeballs (cyberlingo I just made up to replace
that favorite activity we all engage in unwillingly - putting our feet in our
mouths), cawt on my first publick postingg on the very cirrious women's
studies list serve!  Now everyone will no that I'm hummane!  Darn!  <grin>
 
Seriously, though, in grading student work, mistakes such as the inability to
form complete sentences speak to the area of critical thinking.  Writing is
our private thought gone public - it is a reflection of our internal
processes.  Those students who cannot write well, usually do not speak well,
nor think well either, as seen in the inability to write a thesis statement,
to examine an idea and come up with a few reasons why the idea is good, or
bad, to link ideas across paragraphs, or to add original thinking to their
written &/or oral discussion. But, I believe that most students can sharpen
their critical thinking skills when guided to do so, if they see a practical
reason to do so, and if they care enough to try.  It is never "too late" to
learn to expand our thinking and to learn to think critically.  If this were
true, then ideologies like racism and sexism could never be altered over time
in individuals, and clearly this is not the case.
 
Also, I think we need to take the long view and remember that knowledge builds
upon itself over time; our students will have many teachers, and their
education will continue after their graduation whether it's in the academic
world or not.  I consider myself at the beginning of most of their life
journeys, and hope they can learn from my class to keep their eyes wide open,
their questions coming, and not become satisfied with any old answer.  They
have time to perfect these skills - a whole lifetime!  Will all my students
learn to write a bit better, to think a bit better after taking my courses?  I
hope so.  Will they perfect these things in one class - hardly!
 
Athena L. Gracyk
Instructor, Philosophy, Women's Studies, Religion
Moorhead State University
Moorhead, MN 56563
algracyk  @  aol.com
===========================================================================

Hello,
 
The discussion on footnotes and documentation form hits home right now as I
look at a pile of papers analyzing rhetorical artifacts (speeches and
essays).  I am not an English teacher but I teach criticism in a world where
texts never stand in isolation.  References---including their form---matter
in my philosophy of teaching and thus in my students' papers.
 
Trying to overcome students' aversion to documentation is tough but I try to
stress the conversation (i.e. process) quality of these things.  Addressing
the dreaded "P" (plagiarism) injunction, I tell them there are three reasons
to footnote---to give credit, of course,  but also to give credibility (yes,
the student did engage another's idea/argument) and perhaps most important
to continue the conversation (his/her reader wants to know more and the
writer has considerately provided a standard reference).
 
To that I add the kind of "real-world" (I hate that idea---students don't
get an extra 4-5 years of life because they go to college) arguments
mentioned earlier on the list (a boss wouldn't overlook poor form;  you want
to appear as well as be educated don't you; listening matters in your
career).  And of course there is the odd reference to icons (e.g. Aristotle
suggested that good habits make a good [person] and geez are lax ones hard
to break).
 
Frankly, the reference form is often a quick indicator of the care in the
paper and gives me a useful preview.  And, in response to one of the earlier
claims---actually many of my grad students cannot do proper documentation yet.
 
Ivy Glennon
iglennon  @  eiu.edu
===========================================================================

Since I teach library instruction sessions, I have a chance to meet many
teachers along with their classes.  I often ask the teachers "What part of the
paper do you look at first."  Far more often than not, the teacher says,
"The bibliography."  I tell my classes that teachers can tell three things by
looking at a bibliography: 1) does the student know how to do research (what
*kinds* of sources are on the bibliography, 2) has the student chosen sources
carefully and learned what the best sources were (or just taken the first
books that came to hand), and 3) is the format correct, indicating that this
is a person who cares about her/his work.  An experienced teacher knows that
if the answer to these questions is yes, there is about a 95% chance that this
is an A paper.  That is a great way for the teacher to be thinking when s/he
begins reading the paper.  When it is clear that several teachers from several
disciplines all think the same way about bibliographies, students become more
receptive to the idea of paying attention to research and bibliographies.
 
Marilyn Grotzky
===========================================================================

With all due respect to those who think or believe otherwise, I have to
question the basic reasoning behind the idea that one can tell if one is
about to read an "A" paper simply by taking a close look at the
bibliography. I think this kind of thinking signals a basic
misunderstanding of what is at stake when a student writes a paper.
 
The first thing I try to find in the student's paper is her
assertion--what she thinks is the primary point of what she is writing.
And I would say that if the assertion is clear, then we may well be
looking at a good paper, because the student has established _herself_
as the authority and then may well be capable of using the source
material effectively. But the proof is in the proving. I want to find
that original idea, and then see how she goes about proving it to the
reader. To look at the form and content of a bibliography is hardly
going to tell me whether or not the student understands what she has
read, or whether she knows what to do with sources. The only place to
find out whether the paper is an "A" is in the paper itself.
 
Kit McChesney
--
Kit McChesney | University Writing Program | CB 359
University of Colorado at Boulder | Boulder, CO 80309-0359
mcchesn  @  stripe.colorado.edu | http://stripe.colorado.edu/~mcchesn/
 
Publisher/Editor | Circles Magazine | 1705 14th Street, Suite 326
Boulder, CO 80302-6321 | tel 303.245.8815 | fax 303.245.8816
circles  @  indra.com | http://www.circlesmagazine.com
===========================================================================

In many of my courses I also let students submit a draft for revision and,
for the most part, they are not well thought out papers because, again, they
know they can revise.  Currently I don't assign a grade to the first draft
but I am thinking perhaps I should start doing that so that students take the
process more seriously.  What do others think?
 
Deb Berke
Messiah College
dberke  @  messiah.edu
===========================================================================

Deb/WMST-L:
 
I read your comments about allowing students the chance at a second
revision, and how that seems to dimish their enthusiasm and effort for
the first "draft" of their papers.
 
Unless students are shown the value of revision and are guided through
that process (rather than feeling that the first draft doesn't "count")
they probably will, given the opportunity, put less effort into the
first draft. After asking students to do four or five revisions, I can
see their process of thought improve considerably. But unless your class
is specifically devoted to writing instruction, you may not have this
luxury.
 
If you want to have them put their best effort into the paper, and you
feel that their knowing that they have another chance to improve it will
make them lazy on the first go-round, then don't tell them that you'll
allow for a revision. Accept the papers, grade them, and then hand them
back. Watch their reactions. If they seem unhappy with the grades
they've made, make an annoucement that you'll accept one more revision,
and if the paper is improved substantially (not just a few corrections,
but a concerted effort to follow through on your very careful and close
evaluation of their paper), you'll be happy to change their grades. In
my experience, this works very well. If some students have done a good
job the first time around, they'll be happy with what they've done; if
others need more help and more time to rewrite and absorb the process,
they'll go back and improve.
 
Then you've given them a chance to learn something. Who cares if it
takes them more than one shot to get the point? Aren't we using grades
to reward students for their performance and how well they learn? Or are
we using grades to punish them for what they don't know?
 
Kit McChesney
 
--
Kit McChesney | University Writing Program | CB 359
University of Colorado at Boulder | Boulder, CO 80309-0359
mcchesn  @  stripe.colorado.edu | http://stripe.colorado.edu/~mcchesn/
 
Publisher/Editor | Circles Magazine | 1705 14th Street, Suite 326
Boulder, CO 80302-6321 | tel 303.245.8815 | fax 303.245.8816
circles  @  indra.com | http://www.circlesmagazine.com
===========================================================================

One very effective method I use in my classes is to hold an extra
class before each essay is due. Students are not forced to come, they
can decide. Since I started this, every year, almost every student
shows up. I hand out guidelines for the extra class. they have to have
done the reading and made notes (no highlighting). they also need
to come with an outline of the essay. We then go through the notes.
This is important because many don't know how to take notes, they
only know how to highlight bits of a paragraph, decontextualized
from the rest of the argument. the next step is to work
on how to construct an essay and we do this together. I show them
that there is no one way to write an essay since questions
can be answered in a number of ways. I do however make sure
however that they understand the mechanics of essay writing. They
all feel this helps them to begin what looks like an impossible
task, it breaks it down in to sections which then have
to be pulled together. If we want our students to
learn how to write essays, we have to teach them. By the way,
this is for sociology courses, not writing courses so we
have to also deal with content as well as mechanics. Gail
Dines (whe_Dines  @  flo.org)
===========================================================================

Hi everyone,
I, too, have found that assigning rough drafts is less than helpful,
especially in classes that are not primarily devoted to teaching the
writing process.  This is what I do now:
 
each student must turn in a paper proposal that includes: the topic of
choice (I don't assign topics, although I do give lists of suggestions for
them to start with) and probable thesis statement; two "keyterms" that they
can use for searches; at least two bibliographic resources they intend to
use; a short rationale for the paper topic choice that tells how that topic
is related to our course materials; and any questions they have about the
research/writing process.  I read these quickly and carefully, and make
suggestions for narrowing too-broad topics, for redirection, for more
keyterms, etc.;
 
then, I offer to read drafts if they come in to me no less than one full
week before the final paper is due (if I have a large class, or several
things due in the same week, I say two weeks).  This means that a) only
those students who really want help will get it together in time to turn in
the drafts, and b) only those students who get started early (a practice I
want to reward) have time for me to read drafts.  When I read a draft, I do
it in front of the student, in my office.  I read it (often, I ask the
student to read sections aloud to me) and make "reminder" marks on the
paper as I tell the student what the reminder marks mean.  So I might
underline a sentence and write "unpack" next to it as I tell the student
why she needs to slow down that part and explain it more thoroughly.  Often
students take notes while we do this.  I find that this gets the info
across more efficiently than written comments, no matter how carefully
constructed.  Students can ask for clarification, and I'm a much faster
talker than I am comment-writer;
 
finally, if someone comes to me upset with a grade on a paper, I do allow
her to revise for a grade--but I average the two grades together.  I also
take that opportunity to go through the whole rough draft-reading process
with her.  And I do not refrain from saying, "If you had brought a rough
draft to me, this is what I would have done."
 
When a student turns in her final draft to me, she must also turn in her
marked proposal and her marked rough draft.
 
I know this sounds like a really involved process, but it tends to take me
less time than just reading & writing comments.  I can read 30 proposals
(usually 1/2 page each) in about 75 minutes, and I usually take less than
20 minutes with each student's rough draft (if the paper is less than 12
pp. long).  On average, about 10% of my students take me up on the rough
draft offer, the first time, and about 1/2 do after that.  But when I do
this, the marking and commenting on the final drafts goes very quickly,
because they are such great papers by that time (smile)!
 
+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+
The world begins at a kitchen table.  .  .  . / /
Perhaps the world will end at the kitchen table, while we are laugh-
ing and crying, eating of the last sweet bite.
        --Joy Harjo (Muscogee) "Perhaps the World Ends Here"
 
Jeannie Ludlow                              jludlow  @  bgnet.bgsu.edu
American Culture Studies                             (419)372-0176
Women's Studies
Bowling Green State University
Bowling Green OH 43403
===========================================================================

Kit McChesney replied:

> If you want to have them put their best effort into the paper, and you
> feel that their knowing that they have another chance to improve it will
> make them lazy on the first go-round, then don't tell them that you'll
> allow for a revision. ...
> ....
> Then you've given them a chance to learn something. Who cares if it
> takes them more than one shot to get the point? Aren't we using grades
> to reward students for their performance and how well they learn? Or are
> we using grades to punish them for what they don't know?
 
 
I want to address both these points.  First, I too have found that when
students think they will have a second shot, or more time or anything else
that will let them worry about quality later, they tend to do sloppy work.
 
I have also found that a lot of times revisions aren't necessarily better
because the _student_ put in more work but because the student got _me_ to
put in the extra work for him/her.  Let's face it, part of being a good
writer is knowing how to "do it right" before you turn the work in. If we
(as teachers) go over the work with them and show them all the problems with
the work we may be teaching them how to make a specific paper better but are
we teaching them how to edit themselves so that the _next_ paper will be
better before we help them revise it?
 
Grades are not a "punishment" but they should reflect the quality of a
student's work.  I would argue that the student who "gets it" on the first
shot without my help deserves a higher grade than the student who doesn't
"get it" until I have gone over the paper with him/her and coaxed a better
performance out of him/her through my own dedication/efforts.
 
All this being said, I agree on the importance of teaching students to take
good notes, to write several drafts and to learn how to revise.  I won't say
I have found the perfect way to teach all this, but the method that I find
works best for me is the following:
 
In my writing classes I assign five or six papers a semester. These get a
grade, but the lowest grade drops.  In addition, students are required to
pick three of these essays to revise. I grade the revisions as completely
different papers, and the "revised essays" weigh more than the "unrevised"
ones.  For the first revision, I give a lot of help.  For the second
revision, I give less help. For the third revision I give almost no help.
Some students really improve in their writing, by which I mean that they
learn how to plan their work better, develop ideas more, etc. Others do
only what I coaxe them through which means that the third revision is not
good enough.  I do not consider the low grade that they get on the third
revision as "punishment" but as a fair assessment of the quality of their
work.
 
In classes that are not primarily writing classes, I require the students to
keep "idea journals." I grade journals very leniently, focusing only on how
the entries show (or don't show) engagement with the texts we are reading
and/or the class discussion.  Then I will identify portions of their
journals that might be good for developing into essays.  Once the students
have picked their essay topics, I require them to meet with me individually
at least once to discuss how they are writing their papers. I urge them to
bring first drafts (and/or second, third or fourth drafts), and if they do,
I help them rework the drafts as much as they need. (I will also gladly
check and comment on drafts over e-mail.) However, once they turn the work
in for a grade, I grade it and the grade sticks. Again, this is not a
"punishment" but part of the lesson that I am trying to teach my students. I
will work very hard to help them understand things and improve their work,
but the main responsibility for improvement lies with them.
 
Elvira Casal
ecasal  @  frank.mtsu.edu
===========================================================================

<<Let's face it, part of being a good
writer is knowing how to "do it right" before you turn the work in. If we
(as teachers) go over the work with them and show them all the problems with
the work we may be teaching them how to make a specific paper better but are
we teaching them how to edit themselves so that the _next_ paper will be
better before we help them revise it?
>>
 
The problem is, what counts as 'doing it right' the first time? How good is
good, and can't every paper be made better, and can't more be learned in the
process?
 
I raise this question because I changed a lot of attitudes toward student
writing after spending several years editing scholarly manuscripts for
publication. Even when scholarly papers are accepted by a journal (I guess
that would be an A), about 95% require some kind of revision to meet
reviewers' concerns. Many times even papers by excellent, well-known scholars
required substantial revision in order to be accepted for publication,
including those that had already been presented at professional conferences.
 
We all write better papers/articles after reviewers have provided us with
commentary. Every single one of us--even the very best writers among us--can
improve our work after hearing what other people have to say.  And  we
usually end up thinking much more clearly after we have received constructive
criticism and responses.
 
Georgia NeSmith
gnesmith  @  aol.com
===========================================================================

I'm glad to see Georgia's posting on revisions and drafts. Relieved,
actually.
 
I disagree with idea that "getting it right the first time" is a goal
that we should set for students, and I agree that a paper, no matter how
well done, can always be better. And it is true. Scholarly manuscripts
notwithstanding! (Or especially! You would not believe the grammatical
errors I see in my editing work! And this by "educated professionals"!)
 
Our job as teachers is to teach, if I may be so bold as to suggest such
a thing. If we provide guidance by showing them how to make a paper
better, we ARE showing them how to edit. Otherwise, where else will they
get that information? They don't know what they are doing until someone
points it out to them, and carefully. No, we don't have to spoon-feed
.. if there is a grammatical error, one can place a mark in the margin
and say "grammar," and ask the student to look it up in a grammar guide.
They can do that. If the grade is withheld until a satisfactory draft is
submitted, then they will have to pay attention to the comments made in
the margins, otherwise, the grade doesn't improve.
 
That's what I meant about grades and punishment. Anyone who expects
students to "know the material already," before they take the class,
should not be teaching, IMNSHO. I know that sounds harsh, but I don't
see "getting it right the first time" as much of a learning experience
for the student. They need to be pushed--the good paper can always be
pushed to become an excellent paper, and the bad paper can be pushed to
become a good paper--and in my experience, an excellent one, believe it
or not.
 
Kit McChesney
--
Kit McChesney | University Writing Program | CB 359
University of Colorado at Boulder | Boulder, CO 80309-0359
mcchesn  @  stripe.colorado.edu | http://stripe.colorado.edu/~mcchesn/
 
Publisher/Editor | Circles Magazine | 1705 14th Street, Suite 326
Boulder, CO 80302-6321 | tel 303.245.8815 | fax 303.245.8816
circles  @  indra.com | http://www.circlesmagazine.com
===========================================================================

Responding to the following by me,
 
>> Let's face it, part of being a good
>> writer is knowing how to "do it right" before you turn the work in.
 
Georgia Ne Smith wrote:
 
> The problem is, what counts as 'doing it right' the first time? How good is
> good, and can't every paper be made better, and can't more be learned in the
> process?
 
Certainly. And that is why (as I stated in my original message) I give my
students ample time and guidance for revision. Even when a student writes an
"A" paper on his/her first shot I will give the student ideas on how to make
it better, deeper, etc. And I also spend a lot of time commenting on good
ideas in a paper and engaging the student in dialogue about his/her ideas
instead of (as many of my own teachers did) simply handing the student an
"A" and leaving it at that.
 
> Even when scholarly papers are accepted by a journal (I guess
> that would be an A), about 95% require some kind of revision to meet
> reviewers' concerns. Many times even papers by excellent, well-known scholars
> required substantial revision in order to be accepted for publication....
 
Yes, but before they get accepted for publication they have to meet certain
minimal standards. It is meeting these minimal standards (higher, I hope,
for publication than for getting an "A") which I consider "doing it right"
in the context of submitting an article for publication. That is, I wouldn't
submit for publication something that I wasn't satisfied with as my best
work on the subject. A reviewer might have suggestions for improvement, but
a reviewer wouldn't bother with my work in the first place if it wasn't
"good enough."
 
In other words, it may be that we mean different things by "doing it right."
My concern is that students should learn the process by which they can
produce good-quality papers on their own. Yes, I agree that feedback is
important. Yes, I give a lot of feedback. But I also expect students to
learn from that feedback. That's why (as I described in my original post) I
give less detailed help with each paper that the students write. (For
example, with the first paper I might offer two or three suggested revisions
of a "vague thesis statement." With the second paper I might ask a couple of
questions that should help the student come up with a revision of the thesis
statement, and for the third paper I may just write: "vague thesis
statement" on the margin and let the student work at it from there.)
 
Kit McChesney writes:
 
> I disagree with idea that "getting it right the first time" is a goal
> that we should set for students,
 
Again, it depends on what we mean by "getting it right the first time." I
wrote in the context of students who don't take the first draft (or second
draft) seriously because it isn't being graded or because they can always
"try again" until they get the grade they want.  I believe that many of
these students are relying on the teachers to do their work for them.
 
> Our job as teachers is to teach, if I may be so bold as to suggest such
> a thing.
 
Indeed. The question is whether we measure our "teaching" by how much a
student learns or by how good a particular paper can be.  I would argue that
if a student, after having had feedback and help with a couple of papers, is
_still_ not writing better papers at the end of the semester than s/he was
when s/he turned in the first draft of the first paper then the student
hasn't learned.
 
In other words, I try to set things up so that my students will be motived
to _do the work_ necessary to write better papers.  I give them a lot of
guidance and feedback. But I also hold them responsible for using that
guidance and feedback.
 
> Anyone who expects
> students to "know the material already," before they take the class,
> should not be teaching, IMNSHO. I know that sounds harsh, but I don't
> see "getting it right the first time" as much of a learning experience
> for the student.
 
If that is directed at me, you clearly did not read through my message.
Nowhere did I say anything about expecting students to know the material
already. (Though I will suggest that all of us expect students to know
some things already--it would be impossible to teach otherwise.)  What I
said was that I feel that the student who "gets it right the first time"
deserves some sort of a reward for his/her additional effort/competence.
Usually the student who "gets it right the first time" has taken the trouble
to ask questions, show me rough drafts, check the handbook and other
sources, etc.
 
In contrast, I have students who sit passively in my office waiting for me
to rewrite their papers so that they can get higher grades.  I am not
interested in "punishing" these students; I do everything I can to motivate
them to write better, to learn how to "do it right."  But I measure "doing
it right" by how much they can do on their own at the end of the semester.
In most cases, it seems to work.  My students learn to write, and they also
learn to take responsibility for their work.
 
Elvira Casal
ecasal  @  frank.mtsu.edu
===========================================================================

Recently there was some discussion of incorporating the writing process into
women's studies and other "content" oriented courses.  Although I'm not
presently teaching women's studies classes, I am teaching upper divison
British lit, and I'm running into a lot of resistance to writing formal
essays in stages, with multiple drafts, etc.  My students, having done
drafts and workshops in high school,  now see this as "babyish," as well as
something which should be restricted to first year composition classes, and
insist that it doesn't belong in literature classes, especially more
'advanced' ones.  Have others run into this reaction?  And if so, how do you
handle it?
 
Thanks,
 
Lee Kress
kress  @  cnw.com
===========================================================================

For upper division classes, I suggest using a disguised method of getting
students to write drafts.  Ask for a proposal of their project before they
begin,  an abstract as it gets closer to the due date, an annotated
bibliography of the source material, or a 'progress report' that
articulates any problems they've encountered, or how they've refined their
focus,  a class presentation of their research ( also before the paper is
due) and then the final paper.  This can mirror the 'profession' approach
to a writing project--ie. grant application, conference paper, research
report, then final product. It sounds more exciting and grown-up than
drafting, but it's really the same thing and they get to feel like
colleagues in the academic world.  8v}
 
Best, Amy
 
******************
 Amy L. Wink, Ph.D.
Independent Scholar--For Hire.
awink  @  lcc.net
===========================================================================

In reply to the discussion of writing 'process' in upper level courses.
 
I am inside evaluator for a project we've initiated here at Michigan
State to develop writing groups for graduate students in the sciences
who are doing various forms of professional writing, including
dissertations and theses.  Students sign up at the point of need, and
work through as many drafts as needed to make the work presentation or
publication ready.
 
I am just now writng preliminary findings, and so far, it seems that
people who participated three years ago are doing extremely well in
their publishing, and credit the groups with making significant
improvements--of various kinds--in their ability to carry out their
professional writing projects.
 
I think the key to these groups working successfully is having a
singificant audience read the finished product.  Why revise over and
over for no one but the professor?  If they are going to have to present
their papers to an audience they care about or put the papers up on a
web site with their names on them, I'll bet the revision process is much
more welcome.
 
Leonora Smith
===========================================================================

Lee/WMST-L:
 
I was part of that long discussion of writing. Oh dear.
 
Maybe students don't understand that most extended writing IS done in
stages. I'd ask the question, "are they able to write adequately or even
well without using a stage-based and workshop oriented process?" Ask them
the same question. If they are doing well, and producing good papers, then
it isn't an issue. I suspect that since you've raised the idea, that they
aren't performing to your standards or expectations.
 
I find that even in writing classes that are geared specifically towards
teaching writing, most students are really unfamiliar with how writing
happens, that it is largely a process of revision. (With all due respect,
many students have been "trained" to be lazy and passive learners, and
don't want to do the extra work--I blame a lot of this on television). But
experienced writers know that nothing good is ever written without
revision. Somehow students seem to think that a paper is supposed to come
out of their heads, fully formed. I've often asked them if they believe
that any given piece of writing came directly out of the author's head, as
printed, in whatever book or journal they are reading. Their ignorance of
the significance--or even the existence--of a process is astounding.
 
I'd bet that they'd be relieved to follow the workshop process if you
showed them just how many revisions it really does take to get from an idea
to a finished essay. If they were shown that writing is process-oriented.
It would make the writing process more comprehensible to them. Show them
one of your articles or longer essays. Then show them how many drafts you
went through to get there. And just tell them the truth! This is what
writing is and how it "happens."
 
We use a very good text, written by one of our writing program instructors,
called _Ideas in Action_, by Rolf Norgaard (Harper Collins), that gives a
very good foundation for teaching writing this way, using revision as a
central part of the process.
 
Hope you have better luck. It's hard.
 
Kit McChesney
 
======================
mcchesn  @  stripe.colorado.edu
===========================================================================

Lee,
 
I run into this resistance in my upper-level English classes, too!
 
Among the things I do to promote drafting:
 
** bring in my own multiple messy drafts of my writing for publication, and
explain that in my own humble opinion, only fools and genuises try to get
by on a single draft with no additional feedback -- all the rest of the
_professionals_ I know draft and revise.
 
** _focus_ the drafting exercise on different aspects of drafting the paper
at different points in the semester:  one time work with thesis sentences,
another with developing paragraphs to *fully* explain what they mean,
another work with trying alternate means of organization, etc.  For each I
try to model the "new, improved, and much more complex than high school"
version that I'll be expecting from them -- sometimes, I'll even model the
process (in class or on a handout), taking a "basic" thesis or "thin"
paragraph and giving two or three steps to develop it, and then ask them to
do the same with theirs, in similar steps.
 
** give direct drafting and peer review instructions or plans, to keep it
from being just "the same old same old": while many writing teachers
advocate (with good reason) giving students pretty free reign in what they
comment on (peer review) or change (drafting), I've had better success with
very directed exercises.  I'll have peers "find 3 places where the writer
*could* add more examples/evidence/direct quotations" or "add three
transition words" or "write an opposing argument and explain how you might
support it" or "read the first sentence/paragraph only, then write down
three questions you expect this piece of writing to answer...read...explain
whether your questions were answered or not."
 
    Or for pre-writing and drafting, I'll give instructions on how to
do exercises like "looping" or "treeing" (your local composition director
could give you a bundle of these, gratefully!), or do to their own essays
some of the peer-reader items I listed above.  If I have a class with a
common difficulty, I try to design a set of tasks that might help them
through it.  I've also generated lists of "top 20 things to look for as you
polish the final draft," including everything from checking that
semi-colons always connect two sentences to crafting an irresistible
opening sentence to seeing if the starts and ends of paragraphs actually
come back to the main argument of the essay.  Sometimes having a checklist,
for my Reagan-era students, makes it both more "official" and helps them
know where to begin.
 
** have some of the guided drafting or prewriting happen in class, with
everyone working on their own or someone else's paper/idea at least briefly
at the same time; that can at least reinforce the sense that this is
important to you
 
** allow revisions after grading, for grade "carrots."  I allow students to
revise any *one* essay from the class (chosen immediately after the essay's
return to them) for a whole new grade, provided they come to a short
"revision conference" with me and complete a substantial revision.  I never
cease to be amazed at the number of students who are themselves amazed that
I am actually able to help them learn to write better, even as Advanced and
Smart as they are ("gee, I never thought of that" "where were you when I
was writing this thing?" "you know, I think I learned something today!").
;)  A positive experience with wholesale revising can be a powerful
incentive -- and provide models that aren't as high-school-y.
 
 
I generally have pretty docile students; I suppose if I ever had a revolt,
I'd just offer drafting ideas to those who would take them, request that
anyone who did multiple drafts include it in their folder when they turned
stuff in, offer my assistance in office hours, and make it clear that
people who had evidence only of a single draft were going to be given
absolutely no slack in the grading.
 
cheers, and best of luck!
 
shelley 
 
    *****
Shelley Reid
English Department, Austin College
(Home of the Fighting Kangaroos)
Sherman, TX  75090
SREID  @  austinc.edu
    *****
===========================================================================

hi - in the Norton Anthologies of Lit, they always include copies of
revisions at the back,
like Blake's Tyger Tyger; and Keats' Ode to Something on a Shelf  or
whatever-the point is that yes - seeing revisions is crucial,
as is the awareness of how meanings are probed with language not
dealt like cards from a deck.
me 2cents
diane
 
"""""""""""""""""""""""                """""""""""""""""""""""""""""
                        When she walks,
                the revolution's coming.
        In her hips, there's revolution.
      When she talks, I hear revolution.
    In her kiss, I taste the revolution.
       (by Kathleen Hanna: Riot Grrl)
******************************************
 diane celia hodges
 university of british columbia
 faculty of graduate studies,
 centre for the study of curriculum and instruction,
 vancouver, british columbia, canada
 
email: dchodges  @  interchnage.ubc.ca
===========================================================================