Using Eminem in Women's Studies Courses

PAGE 4 OF 4

hi,

this is in response to sevanthi ragunathan's post -- the format might be
weird because i don't know how to reply to digest form yet.

i agree with you: i think critical analyses of eminem, and popular culture
in general, matter very much, certainly as much as canonical literary texts
-- if you believe what we (scholars) do in the classroom is to have any
political resonance at all outside the academy. "we" -- at least in my field
(media studies) -- teach students who will make and distribute those
cultural products, which will impact everyone who uses and gets pleasure
from them.

if you want an example of something super estoeric that got picked up
readily by mass media -- look at how the concept of deconstruction got
disseminated to the "masses" via mtv in the early 90s. also, i think the hip
hop artists you're mentioning -- the more progressive strains like tribe
called quest, pm dawn, digable planets, and who can forget public enemy?
etc. -- very much took ideas from critical race theory and popularized them
in their lyrics.

i'm not sure what to think of eminem yet. i'm trying to negotiate my
admiration of him as a rapper (because the guy is amazing) with my
discomfort at his appropriation of a kind of fetishized black masculinity
(as old as elvis, really -- i need to find more sophisticated terminology to
critique this) and unease with his pomo use of/play with misogynistic and
homophobic lyrics. you also have to take into account the symbiotic
relationship he has with dr. dre, who predicted early on that eminem would
blow everyone away. they were number 2 in vh1's list of top selling
albums/groups this year. neither could have made it without the other. which
makes you wonder.

jane park

re:  "people would never say that about black people or jews" ...

People say things that I find disgusting about black people and many other
groups on a regular basis.  Not in rap music.  On the front page of the
New York Times and the Washington Post.  The people who make these
offensive and misinformed statements are not young, working-class rap
artists but rather men and women in suits.  They sit in the Senate.  They
run government agencies.  They write for the AP.  These people have
careers, and they have a lot more power than Eminem.

I know that the point of a comparison argument is to help people work from
a type of prejudice they know is wrong to other prejudices they do not see
as wrong.  I have nothing against analogy, it's a very useful tool.  But I
think this  particular analogy is very over-used.  In saying over and over
again, "you would never say that about black people" we contribute to the
social consensus that racism is something we solved in the 1960s.  If we
understood racism better, I would not have these conversations over and
over again with my gay activist friends:

"Eminem is terrible.  People would never say things like that about
black people."

"Right.  And someday, homophobia will also take a much more subtle and
insidious form and you will have to drag people kicking and screaming to
prove it even exists.  That's when our real civil rights movement will
begin.  We're in the easy part now."

One can argue, somewhat convincingly, that marginalizing Eminem
contributes to changing those perceptions, by showing people what is and
is not beyond the pale.  But you sort of have to have enough votes to make
your stand or else you look like an idiot.  Feminist critics of popular
culture currently do not have enough votes without joining forces with the
Christian Right and other folks who "just don't like black music."  In
that situation, even giving the appearance of joining Tipper, et. al's
tight-lipped chorus is the very last thing I want to do.

People don't like being told what they should and shouldn't enjoy.
American elites have lost this battle against the penny press, the music
hall, moving pictures, jazz, r&b, rock n'roll and rap.  It makes me wonder
if it's just not a losing battle.  I don't think this means we can't raise
critical questions.  But the best critical questions will come from people
who love and engage with hip-hop and from other hip-hop artists, people
who are already part of a very lively, ongoing debate about violence and
sexism in music and culture.  Those are not the people getting press.

> agree with you: i think critical analyses of eminem, and popular culture
>in general, matter very much, certainly as much as canonical literary texts
>-- if you believe what we (scholars) do in the classroom is to have any
>political resonance at all outside the academy.

(snip here)

>if you want an example of something super estoeric that got picked up
>readily by mass media -- look at how the concept of deconstruction got
>disseminated to the "masses" via mtv in the early 90s.

(snip here)

>(as old as elvis, really -- i need to find more sophisticated terminology to
>critique this)

I'm not sure "deconstruction" as such was ever picked up and disseminated.  I
suspect "deconstruction" a term academics gave to their observation of
cultural processes beamed via satellite, that was then turned down onto
canonical texts.  In say, France.

I know, I know, I'm so far behind I think I'm first...

Helene T. McGrath
Liberal Studies
Ohio State University

this message was posted on the cultural studies listserv. the pbs
documentary could be useful in analyzing how eminem and others
are marketed to youth, etc.

Rebecca


The PBS series FRONTLINE is airing a very good documentary
this week entitled "Merchants of Cool," on corporate marketing to youth.  It
discusses quite a bit of current media content--Britney Spears,
Limp Bizkit, Insane Clown Posse, MTV's TRL, pro wrestling, Howard
Stern, Dawson's Creek, and so on.  There's a great section on the figure
marketed to teen males they call the "mook"--examples are Stern,
Southpark, the Man Show, MTV's Jackass and Tom Green.  The
counterpart for girls they call the "midriff" and the chief example
is Britney Spears.  The program interviews media critic staple Mark
Crispin Miller and others and discusses media conglomeration.
The question the show poses is whether kids have any "authentic"
culture of their own or whether it's all corporate commodity.

Where I am at, it's on again on Sunday 3/4, 4:00 a.m. and again on
Tuesday 3/6, 4:00 a.m.  Check your local listings.  The classroom
use of this piece could lead to some good discussions I would think.

Frontline/PBS's website on the program is quite good:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/cool/

Rebecca Tolley-Stokes
Non-print media cataloger
Sherrod Library
East Tennessee State University
Johnson City, TN
423.439.4365
fax)423.439.4410
tolleyst   AT   etsu.edu

>From: "J. Chi Hyun Park" <janepark   AT   MAIL.UTEXAS.EDU>

>
>if you want an example of something super estoeric that got picked up
>readily by mass media -- look at how the concept of deconstruction got
>disseminated to the "masses" via mtv in the early 90s. also, i think the
>hip
>hop artists you're mentioning -- the more progressive strains like tribe
>called quest, pm dawn, digable planets, and who can forget public enemy?
>etc. -- very much took ideas from critical race theory and popularized them
>in their lyrics.


Mmmmmmmm, no.  Or at least, I'd like to see this documented.  Actually, the
speaker I'm thinking of, and heads more generally, think of phrases like
"more progressive strains," as being the fetishes of white (or at least
exo-hiphop) critics.  And the Native Tongues (Tribe etc) hardly spoke about
race or political issues, compared to much-less-labeled-progressive artists
such as Krs or Kane.  Anyway, the speaker (whose name eludes me) was
referring more to the scholarship around the Afrocentric movement.

>i'm not sure what to think of eminem yet. i'm trying to negotiate my
>admiration of him as a rapper (because the guy is amazing) with my
>discomfort at his appropriation of a kind of fetishized black masculinity

Like I said before, this is really far from the opinion of heads, for whom
the striking thing about Eminem is the extent to which he presents himself
as a herb.  That is to say, a group of people knowledgeable about hiphop,
who are largely black males, generally do not see Eminem as appropriating
fetishized black masculinity--and what does that say?

>(as old as elvis, really -- i need to find more sophisticated terminology
>to
>critique this) and unease with his pomo use of/play with misogynistic and
>homophobic lyrics. you also have to take into account the symbiotic
>relationship he has with dr. dre, who predicted early on that eminem would
>blow everyone away. they were number 2 in vh1's list of top selling
>albums/groups this year. neither could have made it without the other.
>which
>makes you wonder.

Uhm.  We're going further and further astray from the subject of the
list-serv, but ok, I have to say, dre couldn't have made it without a fleet
of producers.....

I saw Merchants of Cool last night (tues)
on local PBS here.  It was about the
marketing manipulation of teens and
post teens.  The most interesting part
was about a group of Detroit teens who were
actively opposing the dominating national
commercial culture.  With their faces marked
up with Kiss-like make-up, the Detroit kids
were actively supporting a violent group
from that city whose name I cannot recall.
Part of the anger is about the exploitive
nature of commercial culture.  The kids 
were interviewed.  Many said they don't want
their group to become a national phenomenon.
They want it to remain theirs and not everyone
elses.  This squares with what I have felt for
years: that the exploitive national culture has
been trashing the local cultures that held sway
in America until the 1950s.  The result has made
people growing up generally unhappy.  The Media
sends a message that you are nothing unless you
are a celebrity or on TV.  You look around for
something in the place you live that belongs 
solely to the people who live there, and find
the landscape pockmarked with chain stores.

Frontline followed up its Detroit report with a
story about the rise from the ashes of Woodstock
99, or Limp Bizkit.  The night before the fires
started at Woodstock '99 the then little known
Limp Bizkit incited Woodstockers to violence.
After this, the group was taken up by a national
label and became an instant success.  This appears
to be Frontline's example of a small group with a
local following that was coopted and used to sell
more products to impressionable teens.

Mike Rice


At 10:44 AM 2/28/01 -0500, you wrote:
>this message was posted on the cultural studies listserv. the pbs
>documentary could be useful in analyzing how eminem and others are marketed
>to youth, etc.
 
write:mrice   AT   elroynet.com

Kudos to all on this discussion. Many excellent thoughts. One thing I wanted
to address:

>> In my neighborhood, recently, I saw a little six year old boy wearing a
>>> T-shirt with a lyric from Snoop Dogg on it.  "Women Ain't Shit" said the
>>> front, "'Cept Bitches and Hos" said the back.
>
> If that's what it said, it's a parody of Snoop, not Snoop himself.

Parady of Snoop or not, none of this boy's 6-year-old peers are going to
understand this dimension of his attire, much less view it within the
context of Snoop's body of work as a whole.

Am I suggesting censorship? No. But I am suggesting it's just a bit
troublesome that this t-shirt was manufactured in sizes small enough to fit
6-year-olds.

Barb Dybwad
bed8   AT   cornell.edu

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Feminist myth #1: Feminists Hate Men
"People hate to be called on their sexist behavior. When challenged, they
often mistake their own discomfort for being hated. It's much easier to
shrug off responsibility, defend privilege, and put it back onto feminists
than it is to examine one's programming, to admit ignorance, and be willing
to change."
 --Wemoon's Army
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Adam Jones said:

<snip>
She [teenage girl who likes Eminem] stated that she wished her own
boyfriend cared as much for *her*.  This may sound surprising, even
shocking, given that the song fantasizes a grisly murder; but "Kim"
actually runs the whole gamut of emotions, encapsulated in the line "I hate
you / Oh, God, I love you."  Perhaps some young women identify with the
idea of being the subject of such extreme attachment.


My comment:
This girl's comments are indicative of something that domestic violence
advocates must deal with all the time, both with victims and the general
public.  If I could change JUST ONE THING in this society, it might be the
belief that possessive jealousy from a man is a sign of love and not of
control.  We need to repeat loud and often and in every context imaginable
- this kind of jealousy and control is both wrong and a WARNING SIGN.  A
man like this, even if he hasn't physically abused her YET - is trouble.

I hear over and over again - on morning drive-time radio shows, in the
Ladies Home Journal, etc. - from women whose lives are being controlled by
male jealousy.    The standard response - and not just among teens: "Oh,
that's just because he loves you so much.  Don't give him any reason to be
jealous [i.e., don't go out with your girlfriends; don't take that
promotion where you'll have to travel, etc., etc.].  Once he feels more
secure, he'll be fine."  AARRGHHH.

Yes - almost all of us feel jealousy.  But non-controlling people view it
as OUR problem and don't try to control the other person due to OUR
insecurities.  And, believe me, the kind of "jealousy" expressed by abusers
is ALL ABOUT HIM - she is just something to be possessed.  This is why the
lyrics to "Kim" are so frighteningly real - Eminem's talk about jealously,
control and his ENTITLEMENT to her attention/servitude and his RIGHT to
punish her for her failure to completely meet his needs - it's EXACTLY how
real abusers talk and think.

Kate Waits
U. of Tulsa College of Law

*************************************

Kathleen (Kate) Waits
Associate Professor
University of Tulsa College of Law
3120 East 4th Place
Tulsa, Oklahoma  74104-2499

918-631-2450 (voice)
918-631-2194 (FAX)

E-mail: kwaits   AT   utulsa.edu

*************************************

Samantha M. Cahill said:

[Her 16 year old sister, commenting on Eminem:]  "Don't worry" she said,
"when the time comes, we [the new generation of feminists] will deal with
it, it isn't your problem."


My comment:
Did this strike anyone else as being like the classic statement of "We'll
take care of Hitler once the time comes. For the moment, he's
useful."  Only by the time these people tried to do anything about Hitler,
it was too late??

To quote Edna St. Vincent Millay: "It is not true that life is one damn
thing after another -- it's one damn thing over and over."  [As the mother
of a 15-year old, I live EVERY DAY with the frustrating reality that EACH
GENERATION insists on NOT learning from the previous generation's
mistakes!!  I think this is why the Bible, especially Genesis, still speaks
to us after some 3000 years.  We look at the troubled marriages, sibling
rivalry, etc. and say, "Gee, I recognize these people and their problems."]



Kate Waits
U. of Tulsa College of Law


*************************************

Kathleen (Kate) Waits
Associate Professor
University of Tulsa College of Law
3120 East 4th Place
Tulsa, Oklahoma  74104-2499

918-631-2450 (voice)
918-631-2194 (FAX)

E-mail: kwaits   AT   utulsa.edu

*************************************

Susan D. Kane said:

"Eminem is terrible.  People would never say things like that about
black people."

"Right.  And someday, homophobia will also take a much more subtle and
insidious form and you will have to drag people kicking and screaming to
prove it even exists.  That's when our real civil rights movement will
begin.  We're in the easy part now."



My comment [my 3d of the day - can you tell I'm on spring break and 
procrastinating from a big project!!]

This brings to mine one of my absolutely favorite quotes: "Hypocrisy is the 
homage vice pays to virtue." Frantois, duc de La Rochefoucauld (1613û1680).

It is ALWAYS a sign of progress when we move from outright offensive 
statements to hypocrisy.

Kate Waits
U. of Tulsa College of Law

*************************************

Kathleen (Kate) Waits
Associate Professor
University of Tulsa College of Law
3120 East 4th Place
Tulsa, Oklahoma  74104-2499

918-631-2450 (voice)
918-631-2194 (FAX)

E-mail: kwaits   AT   utulsa.edu

*************************************

Isn't it just a shame that this generation of women is unwilling to learn from
the stance of the next.  I learn things from younger women all the time.  One
is that they don't spend much time constructing themselves as victims, as the
contemporary academic bunch is prone to do; another is that they are
proactive, instead of reactive. Unlike our former president Reagan, who blamed
the evils of youth on Rock-n'-Roll, they tend to leave music in its place --
they see it as a symptom, not a cause of the oppressive gender system. They
are also not about to dwell on the oppression part (we've done enough of that
for them), and prefer taking action to see that their needs are met.

I will make endless, highly theoretical arguments about the role of religious
women in the seventeenth century, but when it comes to what is going on today,
I prefer to be a bit more proactive. Complaining about Eminem here doesn't do
anyone any good, unless your goal is to bolster the pack and make everyone
feel "righteous" in their position; talking to the kids in the extremely long
line to buy tickets to an Eminem concert is a little more useful, at least
you've got a chance of reaching the people who actually might learn something
from the encounter. I recognize that many of you must be appalled at the idea
of actually having to use vernacular language to go out and talk to the common
people, but hey it worked for women in the seventeenth century; come to think
of it, most of the women's writing left from that time period is in the
vernacular, and was written for the common people, which is why it survived.
Maybe we should take our lessons from those women -- or is that generation too
far back for you to consider learning from?


>To quote Edna St. Vincent Millay: "It is not true that life is one damn
>thing after another -- it's one damn thing over and over."  [As the mother
>of a 15-year old, I live EVERY DAY with the frustrating reality that EACH
>GENERATION insists on NOT learning from the previous generation's
>mistakes!!  I think this is why the Bible, especially Genesis, still speaks
>to us after some 3000 years.  We look at the troubled marriages, sibling
>rivalry, etc. and say, "Gee, I recognize these people and their problems."]

>Kate Waits
>U. of Tulsa College of Law

Hi, folks.  I think the Eminem discussion has been very useful in
airing a number of points of view, but the volume of messages has
been quite overwhelming, and I think it's time to move on.  Those who
wish to continue the discussion should do so privately or on a
different list.  I might mention that Yahoo Groups (formerly Egroups)
has MANY lists that focus on Eminem.  You can find them at
http://groups.yahoo.com/search?query=eminem&submit=Search  .

Please do not send more messages on this topic to WMST-L.

    Many thanks once again for your understanding and cooperation.

    Joan

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Joan Korenman                korenman   AT   GL.umbc.edu
U. of Md., Baltimore County  http://www.umbc.edu/cwit/
Baltimore, MD 21250          http://www.umbc.edu/wmst/

The only person to have everything done by Friday was Robinson Crusoe
---------------------------------------------------------------------