A Ph.D. in Women's Studies?

The following discussion about whether to advise students to get a Ph.D. in 
Women's Studies took place on WMST-L in April 1997.  For a more general (and 
lengthier) discussion about the job market (from 1995), see the 3-part file 
entitled The Academic Job Market.
=============================================================

 
    I'm interested in hearing people's ideas/experiences regarding
advising students about graduate degrees in Women's Studies.  A student
in our minor program wants very much to get a PhD in
Women's Studies but she's having second thoughts because her major area
advisor and also a Women's Studies advisor at the school she previously
attended have advised her against this. For practical reasons (jobs), they've
encouraged her to focus on women's issues but to get her degree in a
traditional subject area.
    My inclination is to encourage her to go for the Women's Studies
degree, but we'd both appreciate hearing from those who did Women's Studies
graduate degrees, who wish they had done them, etc.
 
Isabelle White
Eastern Kentucky University
wmswhite.eku.edu
===========================================================================

 
>     My inclination is to encourage her to go for the Women's Studies
> degree, but we'd both appreciate hearing from those who did Women's Studies
> graduate degrees, who wish they had done them, etc.
 
Well, the advice of many of my favorite advisors in both undergrad & grad
school was always to study/get a degree in/major in/etc. whatever really
passionately attracts you most -- because that is pretty much the only way
that you have much of a chance to really do your best work, make the best
use of your talents & expertise, etc., etc.
 
Another consideration:  I have seen an increasing number of job
announcements in Women's Studies that ask for applicants with a Ph.D. in
Women's Studies.  If a woman now starting grad school were interested in an
academic career in Women's Studies, I'd certainly advise her to go for the
Ph.D. in Women's Studies, if that is where her interest lies.  This seems
like a field that is relatively ripe for some growth, especially by the time
that a person now entering Grad School is completing the doctorate.
 
I personally cannot imagine putting in the time and effort to study, write a
dissertation, earn a doctorate, etc., in an area of study that I didn't
really care about very much, or that wasn't intellectually magnetic for me.
 
OTOH, I'd advise *against* getting a doctorate in Women's Studies solely in
order to try to select a "hot field" in which one was likely to find
employment upon graduation, etc.  Women's Studies doesn't need an influx of
folks who are in it for that motivation, and there are probably not enough
Ph.D. programs to accommodate all who might want to do that anyway.
 
ruth
ginzberg  @  beloit.edu
Women's Studies
Beloit College
=============================================================================

 
How many schools offer PhDs in women's studies?  I last heard that there
were only four- which is an important consideration for deciding what kind
of degree to pursue.
 
=============================================================================

 
Isabelle and everyone:
 
        I did a Master's in Women's Studies at Bucknell in the mid 80s
through their interdisciplinary master's program (since dismantled, I
believe).  I didn't know what I'd use it for, just knew that I needed to
read/do what I loved for a change.  The degree was not a plus in finding
many of the activist jobs I landed thereafter, but did position me well for
this incredible job I have now, directing The Union Institute's Center for
Women (about 7 years after I got the degree).  I'm now doing my PhD in
Women's Studies through the Institute, which offers self-designed degree
programs and an incredible, national feminist faculty (including Minnie
Bruce Pratt, Chandra Talpade Mohanty, Elizabeth Minnich, and others).
 
        The lesson for me was:  do what you love and the path will open.  I
have never looked back.
 
        Jaime
        jgrant  @  tui.edu
 
===========================================================================

 
In response to Ruth Ginzberg and Dr. White,
 
>>     My inclination is to encourage her to go for the Women's Studies
>> degree, but we'd both appreciate hearing from those who did Women's Studies
>> graduate degrees, who wish they had done them, etc.
>
>Well, the advice of many of my favorite advisors in both undergrad & grad
>school was always to study/get a degree in/major in/etc. whatever really
>passionately attracts you most -- because that is pretty much the only way
>that you have much of a chance to really do your best work, make the best
>use of your talents & expertise, etc., etc.
 
I am VERY passionate about Women's Studies. I appreciate the advice because
I have been going back and forth about which path to take. I figure someone
needs to take over for bell hooks, Audre Lorde, and others, to keep the
good fight going, and who better to do it than me! I'm in a certificate
program right now and would like to go all the way to PhD. I've heard from
Emory University, Ohio State University and Universities that give a
concentration in Women's Studies from an original area (history, sociology,
etc) like UC Santa Cruz. I'm still waiting to hear from Boston University,
CUNY and others.
If anybody knows of any other programs that are *specifically* Women's
Studies or if anybody wants to take a dedicated student under thier wing
and mold them into the next big thing, e-mail me privately or to the group.
Future feminists thank you.
Lori
 
Lori Patterson
Roger Tucker
Elijah Lapret
lapret  @  cybernw.com
4808 NE 8th Ave #2
Portland, OR 97211
(503) 288-8037
=============================================================================

 
Lori,  More power to you.  I am a feminist of the generation who helped
to start Women's Studies on my campus and I can confirm that if the
laws of nature continue to prevail, a lot of women my age will be
retiring in the next decade.  We had to learn to be interdisciplinary
scholars on our own--hard work but fun.  Now whole programs exist
=============================================================================

 
If we don't encourage those students who are truly passionately interested
in the field to get graduate degrees in Women's Studies we will be
undercutting the growth and "legitimization" of our (trans)discipline
nationally.  I, too, have told students to focus their efforts on
women's issues in established disciplines because of the emphasis on
joint appointments in the job market, but I didn't always feel
comfortable doing this.  I am heartened to see at least the handful
of jobs out there that ask for Women's Studies graduate training.
I'm not saying that we shouldn't also talk about the option of doing
Women's Studies through History or English or Sociology or whatever;
for some students this fits the bill.   But for others who want to focus
on Women's Studies as its own field with its own questions, I now
say go for if you can.  That option wasn't available to me when I
went through American Studies at Univ. of Michigan (they developed
the graduate certificate in WS after I had finished my coursework) but
I'm always bemused when people ask me, as a faculty member IN Women's
Studies, period, what field am I "really" in!  Barbara Scott Winkler,
West Virginia University Center for Women's Studies
=============================================================================

 
Okay, well, I'm going to throw in my two cents' worth about this.
 
I just received a Ph.D. in Women's Studies from Emory. I can say with some
authority, then, that your students need to think long and hard about this
decision.
 
I came to WS because there was not other place for me to do the research I
wanted to do. My experience at Emory has been mostly great (and how many
people can say _that_ about any graduate program?). I have had the freedom
to pursue my interests, good financial support (better than most places),
and, most importantly, have not been expected to clone someone else's
research or had my imagination trampled to dust. I finieshed in five
years, writing a Master's thesis on the way, and with the support of AAUW
in my last year. In all, I've had a really positive graduate school
experince.
 
However, I now realize, having been on the job market, that having a Ph.D.
in WS is not all that I though it would be. Traditional departments (my
other area is sociology/criminology) often demand a Ph.D. in their
discipline. They often view the WS degree with some suspicion, at best,
and as an equivalent of basket-weaving, at worst. I have had interest from
interdisciplinary sociology programs, but these are few and far between.
Of course, this is hardly surprising.
 
I also applied for nearly every WS job out there. Guess what? Not a
nibble. I don't want to sound immodest, but I KNOW that I am a strong
candidate. I have publications. I have not only a strong teaching record,
but excellent teaching evaluations from both faculty and students. Those
recommenders who shared their letters with me gave me the highest
recommendations (and these are people with whom I have worked closely for
five years and who know me very well). I have an interesting, meaningful
dissertation. I have presented at numerous conferences (NWSA, SEWSA, SSS,
ASA, SSSP, plus smaller ones) and have always been well-received. I am an
overachiever, even by graduate school standards.
 
What's going on? From my investigations, I believe that we need to ask
whether WS programs are hiring WS Ph.D.s, or do THEY also view the WS
Ph.D. as the equivalent of basket-weaving? I think that this is the
question that must be addressed before we encourage anyone to get their
degree in WS. Any takers?
 
So my recommendation is this: If your student views the Ph.D. as an avenue
to employment in academia, I'd advise him/her not to take the chance (and
believe me, it breaks my heart to write this). If your student views the
Ph.D. as a challenge, a life experience, an end in itself (as I do,
somewhat--my dad was a welder who never even made it through grade school,
my mother a secretary with a late-acquired associate's degree, I have a
Ph.D. I have peaked), then by all means, send him/her to WS, where s/he
will be given the opportunity to pursue all manner of innovative research
(I hope).
 
If you had asked me a year ago about sending your students to WS, I would
have encouraged you wholeheartedly. Now, older, sadder, and wiser maybe, I
realize that the state of affairs is such that getting a Ph.D is WS may
shut more doors, EVEN DOORS IN WOMEN'S STUDIES, than it opens.
 
As for me, I will be working as prevention specilaist/youth educator at
the DeKalb Rape Crisis Center, a job which will be both challenging and
rewarding, which will allow me to use my skills in the service of my
politics and beliefs, but which will never carry the freedom, prestige,
and pay of an academic position.
 
I think that you should have your students think about the sacrifices they
may have to make for WS. I also think that we should all start thinking
and talking about the real state of the job market in WS. Thanks.
 
Lauraine Leblanc
Institute for Women's Studies, Emory University
lleblan  @  emory.edu
 
People think, if you're a female punk rocker that you're worthless and
you're stupid and you're nasty, but we have . . . equal, if not more
power to do things, to go places and to be, and to make kick-ass
music, to open our own stores, to do our own thing, to raise hell. We
have, just because we are girls. Because we're women and we can, and
we're strong women and I think that's why we get looked down on a lot.
We're not afraid to say, "Fuck you, that's not right," and so they
kind of like laugh at us and stuff, but deep down inside, they want to be
us. They do! . . . They do! They want to be us! You know Donna Reed. Can
ou see Donna Reed in combat boots? In green liberty spikes, mopping a
floor? "Get your own damn dinner!"    --"Lola," June 1995
=============================================================================

 
I chose to do graduate degrees in Women's Studies (an M.A. and a soon to be
completed Ph.D.) for the exact reasons Ruth identified.  It was the
discipline I felt most passionate about and the discipline in which I felt I
could do my best work and offer the most with relation to teaching.
 
As I have not yet completed my degree (I'll defend this summer) I can't
comment on the possibilities of academic jobs in Women's Studies, but Ruth is
correct to note that there *are* job postings in the discipline, both tenure
stream and contractual.  And one of the best sources of them has been
WMST-L!!
 
I would advise students that are interested in pursuing graduate degrees in
Women's Studies (and who are unsure about doing so) to talk to others who are
currently in graduate programmes in Women's Studies, to talk to those who
teach in graduate programmes in Women's Studies, attend conferences that have
sessions for graduate students (lots of them do), etc.
 
Hope this helps!
 
Katherine Side
klside  @  YorkU.ca
 
Graduate Programme in Women's Studies
York University
North York, Ontario
Canada
M3J 1P3
=============================================================================

 
As a woman with an MA in Women's Studies and a Ph.D in American Studies, I
agree with much of Lauraine's message.  I, too, am frustrated with the
hiring situation of Women's Studies.  I have seen too many
faculty positions go to women with absolutely no training in Women's
Studies. What message does this send to the discipline and more
importantly to our undergraduate and graduate students?  I'm afraid that
hiring women's studies faculty who are not trained in the discipline is
the quickest way to kill it.  I do not mean to offend Women's Studies
facully members with degrees in the more traditional academic disciplines,
but the reality is that they are doing the hiring.  I unfortunately
believe mere lip service is given to those of us who are trained in the
discipline and that our degrees are not valued.  It is time institutions
begin hiring faculty trained in the field--or at least ask for women's
studies training in the job announcements.
 
Teri Ann Bengiveno
San Jose State University
bengiven  @  email.sjsu.edu
=============================================================================

 
While I agree that the ongoing spectre of men's studies does require the
continued fighting and efforts of WS (not to mention affirmative
action--oops, I just did), I wonder also about the viability of the Ph.D.
in Women's Studies in the WS job market. Ongoing anecdotal evidence
suggests to me that the validity of the WS Ph.D. is questioned there as
well, which is what I find to be the most disturbinf.
 
Thus, I want to ask the following questions:
 
How do hiring committees in WS view the WS Ph.D.?
 
Given that there are so few Ph.D. programs, and thus few WS Ph.D.s, how
have they fared on the job market?
 
How about WS positions that are joint appointments? Do the joint
departments look down on the WS Ph.D., pushing in favor of a candidtae
with a traditional degree and a "certificate" in WS? (i.e. "any woman can
teach WS)
 
What are the criteria by which hiring committees evaluate the Ph.D. in WS?
 
Would it be easier for me to get a WS job if I had a Ph.D. in Sociology
(for example)?
 
I think that the time has come for us as a WS academic community to assess
these questions very seriously--it's almost criminal for us to turn out WS
academics if no one--NOT EVEN WOMEN'S STUDIES PROGRAMS--will hire us.
 
I, for one, would very much like to hear from WS administrators, hiring
committee members, etc. on this list concerning these issues. Thank you.
 
Lauraine Leblanc
Institute for Women's Studies, Emory University
lleblan  @  emory.edu
[see earlier message for long sig. file]
 
On Fri, 11 Apr 1997, Ruby Rohrlich wrote:
 
> The real problem is that the traditional canon rules in all the
> disciplines; that is, that despite the superhuman efforts of feminist
> scholars to transform the disciplines into human studies, they remain
> men's studies, and that is the real reason a doctorate in women's studies
> is unacceptable.  Ruby Rohrlich   rohrlich  @  gwis2.circ.gwu.edu
 
============================================================================

 
It seems to me that part of this difficulty of Women's Studies as a
discipline is the actual interdisciplinary nature of the work. Some
questions to consider maybe is Women's Studies a department in itself, or
is it a "program" incorporating faculty from a variety of different
departments? Does the particular Women's Studies dept/program consider
itself to be social sciences, or humanities, and how does this influence
hiring or understandings of Women's Studies "training." Do other
interdisciplinary Ph.D. programs, ie. American Studies, have a similar
difficulty in hiring?
 
As a new Ph.D in English, and having completed a dissertation on women's
diaries which falls more into the interdisiplinary catagories such as
Women's Studies, I am looking for jobs with a Women's Studies emphasis
because I *love* it AND I *love* literature. However, I find that such jobs
often expect social science training. As president of TAMU's graduate
Women's Studies group, I worked to create a Women' Studies certificate
available through the history and English departments here, but I had
completed my course work, my prelims, and was well on my way to writing my
dissertation, so I did not go back and take the 6 more hours I needed to
receive the certificate. Thus, in some eyes, I have not been trained in the
discipline. For me, the beauty of Women's Studies is the interdisciplinary
research involved in the field. I'd recommend any student to decide how
they wish to focus their work, (humanities, social science, etc.) and
choose their program carefully. And to really really want to do it. It's
too hard to do, regardless of emphasis, if you don't love it.
 
Amy L. Wink
 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
 
Amy L. Wink, Ph.D.
alw7315  @  acs.tamu.edu
Department of English
Texas A&M University
College Station, TX 77843-4227
 
 
"A Letter always feels to me like immortality because it is the mind alone
without corporeal friend. Indebted in our talk to attitude and accent,
there seems a spectral power in thought that walks alone."
 
                                                Emily Dickinson
                                          _Selected Letters_ (#330, p.196)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
============================================================================

 
Someone tell me it's not as bad as it sounds!
 
While I'm fully aware that the academic job market is highly competitive,
is it really as closed as this thread has made it seem??
 
I am right now struggling through the writing of my dissertation and am
hoping to finish by the end of the year when I will begin to circulate my
resume. What should I realistically expect? I know much of this depends on
geography, ability to relocate, etc. but perhaps we could discuss the WS
job market more fully.
 
Denise libra  @  warwick.net
=============================================================================

 
The fact is that for over 20 years there have been fewer U.S. academic
jobs in the social science and humanities areas each year than there have
been Ph.D.s granted in each area. Often the difference between the number
of advertised jobs and newly minted Ph.D. ran as high as a surplus of 200
people more than available jobs. This is nothing new, and ironically the
situation has been getting slightly better in the last several years.  In
fact, a careful discussion of job trends in the most current issue of the
American Historical Association Newsletter discusses these trends with
comparative statistics for a number of fields.  Women's studies jobs are
relatively few in number because few women's studies programs have had
the status for independent hires.  Most hiring UNTIL RECENTLY has been in
other disciplines with a FIELD or interest in women's studies.  However,
in the last two years the number of women's studies focused jobs has
begun to increase.  It's still a tough job market and anyone in ANY field
of academia should expect to have to be very persistent and prepare for a
several year search for a tenure stream job. I wish I could give those in
graduate school better news, but that's the reality.  It is also very
difficult to move once you have a job.  Except for a small number of
positions at research institutions, almost all the jobs that are listed
will be for starting assistant professors.  That's all the universities
and colleges will fund. It's why you will find advertisements even for
directors of women's studies programs listed sometimes as Assistant
Professor level.   Joan Gundersen  jrgunder  @  coyote.csusm.edu
===========================================================================

 
I agree with Teri Ann Bengiveno and Lauraine LeBlanc about the pitfalls
and frustrations of advanced WS degrees.
 
I have had a similar experience, but on the lower end of the hiring
scale.  I have a grad Certificate in WS, and a JD.  I applied for an
American Women's History position on the CC level, and found to my
amazement that having a WS background was not part of the hiring
criteria at all.  Worse than that, only white men have taught the
course, and still do.
 
However, the requirement was specifically that the instructor have 18
grad hours in the field. I had documented 19 grad hrs for my WS Cert.  I
realize that my hours were not per se in the field of history, but
this was a CC course.  My point is that grad work in  WS  may indeed be
greatly undervalued, especially in academia.
 
So, in some respects, my WS work (was also my undergrad major) has
opened doors for me, but in others, I too feel the frustrations of the
dead-end in hiring.  Would I have done it differently if I had it to do
over? NO. The problem is not the field of study, but the lack of
recognition for it after graduation.  There must be a better way of
gaining esteem for WS in the hiring world.
 
M. Johnston   <johnston1  @  worldnet.att.net>
==========================================================================

 
I know this thread has gotten long, but I hope there's room for another
thought.  One aspect that hasn't been addressed directly is the wide breadth
of Women's Studies.    Just about everyone I know in the field is
knowledgeable in one or more of the humanities (literature, languages, the
arts, history, etc.) OR one or more of the social sciences (psychology,
sociology, political science, etc.) and only a few are well-versed in
cross-cultural, international, class or race issues.  And yet WS cuts across
all of these approaches, is a way of viewing everything, a feminist,
woman-focussed approach to the world.
 
To me it seems impossible to have a depth of knowledge and skill in every
aspect of WS.  There is certainly a core of understanding and methodology
that everyone in the field shares, or should share,  but it seems appropriate
and realistic for each of us to have a specialty area where we can confront
the canon and help rework the traditional  approaches.
 
As a member of the "old guard" who created WS from within our respective
departments, I realize I may be out-of-date or worse.  The "new guard" in our
program are enthusiastically planning for a full-time position (I'm thrilled
at the prospect, too) and intend to advertise for a Ph.D. in WS.   I can't
help but worry that the person who is hired will be isolated and vulnerable
if she doesn't have connections elsewhere on campus.   I've seen it happen in
Ethnic Studies, which is a separate department with hiring power but lacks
respect and can't attract the best faculty because of their isolation.   Part
of the problem surely is discrimination, but similar limitations seem to
impact on individuals and programs in such areas a American Studies or
Liberal Studies.
 
After serious soul-searching, I'd still suggest that someone who wants to
specialize in WS carve out a specialty area in which she can work in depth,
and I'd also suggest that anyone considering a WS-only position try to
negotiate a joint appointment or some other formal relationship with one or
more other departments. I believe this would strengthen her career
opportunities and the WS program, too.
 
Kathleen Preston, Prof. Emerita
Psychology and Women's Studies
Humboldt State University, Arcata CA
KathKnight  @  aol.com
==========================================================================

 
        The accumulating reports on diverse experience with WS degrees or
certificates in getting jobs suggest strongly that it's a topic to be
discussed at the NWSA conference, with consideration given to an NWSA
intiative in respect to employers.    beatrice
bkachuck  @  cuny.campus.mci.net
 
===========================================================================

 
First, going back to an earlier discussion on the history of Women's
Studies programs, Women's Studies at George Washington University will be
celebrating the 25th anniversary of our GRADUATE program in the Fall of
1997.  To our knowledge, we were the first Women's Studies Program to
grant an MA degree in Women's Studies (since 1972).  I would be curious to
know founding dates of other early graduate degree programs in Women's
Studies.
 
Second, on the advising question:  Our M.A. program requires students to
have a 4-course concentration in some discipline (or occasionally in a
2nd interdisciplinary field).  A number of students who receive our
M.A. in Women's Studies go on to a Ph.D. program in a discipline.  This
seems to be a viable combination for an academic career.  (Others pursue
non-academic careers.)  We (Women's Studies) also offer an M.A. in Public
Policy and Women's Studies which requires the same number of Women's
Studies credits as our non-policy M.A., but gives graduates  a
more marketable degree for some purposes (and some training in economics,
statistics, etc.).
 
We have proposed and our waiting for final approval of a Gender and
Social Policy track in the interdisciplinary Public Policy Ph.D. program
at George Washington.  If approved, this will enable interested students
to combine Women's Studies with a PhD degree that will make them eligible
for both academic and non-academic jobs.
 
As a sociologist who has studied labor market restructuring I think it is
increasingly essential for women (and men) to prepare for various
career contingencies.  For PhD students today in almost any field,
planning for possible non-academic as well as academic career
possibilities is sound advice.
 
Finally, on the question of whether current Women's Studies PhD's are
disadvantaged in applying for Women's Studies jobs, I think part of the
problem may be that Women's Studies slots are still often structured so
that they are joint appointments with some disciplinary department and a
department has to approve/want the candidate as well as Women's Studies.
I would be curious if those Women's Studies programs who have openings
fully in Women's Studies rather than joint are in fact any more likely to
seek and hire Women's Studies PhD's.
 
Cynthia Deitch
George Washington University
=============================================================================

 
On Wed, 16 Apr 1997, Katherine Side wrote:
[cut]
> One way would be to have an open discussion with grad students seeking
> employment in WS departments and programmes.  We could share information, job
> seeking strategies, etc.  I know this  would be really useful for me, and I
> hope others too.
 
I just need to interject, here, that the assumption that "grad students"
are the people looking for jobs is not only erroneous, but it seems (to
me, at least, and probably because I am undergoing yet another crisis
facing one more year of part-time teaching) to leave out those of us who
have been on the job market for some time.
 
I've been actively seeking jobs on-and-off for five years, now.  I
finished my dissertation in 1992 (Dec.) and started my job search while I
was ABD--a big mistake, I now know, in terms of my self-esteem.  I do not
intend this posting to be flaming anyone, nor to be subjecting everyone
else to my own hypersensitivity, but I could use a bit of help/support, as
well.  I know I am not alone in this (although it sure feels that way
sometimes).  Others' posts on this topic indicate that advice in the
current job market would benefit some of us who are no longer graduate
students.
 
Sorry to whine.  This post is offered with all due respect.
Jeannie
?????????????????????????????what do you see?????????????????????????????
"There is great power in being able to see the world as one will and then
to have that vision enacted.  But if being is seeing for the subject,
then being seen is the precise measure of existence for the object."
     --Patricia J. Williams, from _The Alchemy of Race and Rights_
Jeannie Ludlow                      jludlow  @  bgnet.bgsu.edu
        Ethnic Studies, Women's Studies, Popular Culture
???????????????????????????where is your power???????????????????????????
===========================================================================