Men in Women's Studies Classes

The following 2-part discussion about the presence of men in women's studies
classes took place on WMST-L in January 1997.  People interested in this
topic may also wish to look at an earlier discussion (from April 1993) 
entitled Male Alienation in Women's Studies Classes, and a later one 
(from February 1999) entitled Men in Women's Studies Classes II.  For 
additional WMST-L discussions on a variety of topics, see the 
WMST-L File List.

 
PAGE 1 OF 2

 
This is the second time I have found my Women's Studies students asking
for and why there are no men in my class Woman as Body.  Personally I
don't really want men in the class because I feel we have enough on our
plate with negotiataing each other's issues around embodiment but they
seem to feel differently.  Has this issue been discussed on
the list before?  I have absolutely NO desire to beat the bushes to find
men for my classes - they fill completely as it is and I told them that.
Thoughts?
Carol Horwitz (Women's Studies at Knox College)

 
I have 6 men in my Intro to Women's Studes course.  Two are women's Studies
minors, and 4 are there for no apparent reason (they don't talk, they are
rather intimidating to the other students).  You might ask your
student 1) why they want men, 2) what they think men could add to the class
3) in what ways might men detract from the class, and 4) what KIND of
men do they want in the class?  Yes, I love teaching all-women classes,
but I don't mind men who are thoughtful and take the class seriously.
Also, you might want to discuss WHY men do or don't take women's studies
 classes.
I have found that some are sincere, but others are obviously there for
other reasons (think it will be easy, want to give a "male" point of view,
want to waste everyone's time by trying to discredit me and the material).
Christine Smith
Ball State University
10casmith  @  bsuvc.bsu.edu

 
Carol:
 
        I don't think it's your responsibility to recruit men for a class.
But the question is a great one to raise discussion.  Why do they think
their male peers aren't signing up?  Why don't they ask them and create
dialogue?  Do your students want to produce some kind of
consciousness-raising event about the importance of classes such as Women as
Body to men's intellectual and personal growth?  How would a class on Woman
as Body change if there was one man in it?  Ten?
 
        Hope this is helpful.
 
        Jaime
        jgrant  @  tui.edu
 

 
Regarding my last post on this topic, want to say--don't waste too much time
on this issue.  Everytime we want to discuss women and women's lives,
some of my students will try to bring it back to men.  It is a
WOMEN'S STUDIES course.  And this is exactly why.
Christine Smith

 
I replied privately to the prof who requested info about men in the classes,
but I'll share my thoughts with you.  I have only had overwhelmingly
positive experiences with men in wmst, both as teachers of courses, guest
lecturers, and students. Two wonderful profs who were men successfully
taught feminist philosophy and Women in Sport.  Part of the solution is to
discuss the inherent issues right at the beginning of the class.  One prof
sets groundrules for class discussion.  This eliminates the men who take the
classes to "meet chicks".  A feminist awareness and pedagogy does not have
to preclude gender; I've met many female profs who are decidedly anti-feminist.
Actually, I think the time has come for Men's Studies.  Not the Iron John
drums-in-the-woods crap, but a forum where men are able to use feminist
techniques of deconstruction and critique to examine male gender
expectations and stereotypes.
 
Cheers,
Krista
Graduate Women's Studies
S716 Ross
York University,
North York, ON
krust  @  interlog.com

 
I don't see how a teacher can or should answer this question. I believe
female students need to direct their curiosity towards their male fellows.
When I get into such a discussion myself, I always make a point out of
finding out about men's *motives* to be in such a class. If it's just
in order to defend their sex (as I have often found), I don't find
their presence useful.
 
Michaela Blaha
Ruhr University Bochum

 
I remember asking that same question as a Master's student in one of
Carolyn Heilbrun's classes at Columbia (i.e. wouldn't it be nice if there
were some men in this class).  She was adamant that it was better to
finally have a class men wouldn't monopolize.  In retrospect, I may have
been asking the question out of an (egregiously) misplaced sense that
unless men were interested in the class, it somehow didn't have as much
value.  My conscious motivation for asking the question was that I thought
it would be nice to have some men's perspectives on the issues (women and
marriage in literature) we were going to be discussing.
 
Lisa

 
I think there are 2 different questions here:
1. Do men need to take WS courses? and
2. Do WS courses "need" men in them?
Yes, no.
 
Janet McAdams
jmcadams  @  sfasu.edu

 
>I agree with what Janet McAdams said, because of my experience--and I have
taught feminist women's studies courses (the adjective is now necessary)
since 1969.  While the majority of men in women's studies courses are fine
apparantly it takes only one to make an enormouse amount of trouble.  Most
of us know about the man at the Univ Washington who took women's studies
there to court. Similarly both at the Univ Ill  at Chicago and at Cal State
at Northridge one dissatisfied man ruined the class, and, in once incident,
the Univ. Ill. used that to force me out of Liberal Arts so that I couldn't
teach women's studies or sociology any more, and ultimately had to leave the
University (and I was a tenured full professor) , and at Cal State
Northridge I was so disgusted with the support he received from the head of
women's studies there that I decided not to teach there anymore.  We have a
combination of two factors--apparantly the Universities take male complaints
about feminist bias much more seriously than do do female complaints about
other things, and second, ironically, because of the efforts on behalf of
student power and student rights we worked for in the sixties, assuming that
the students would be like us, the male students are quite aggressive about
their complaints, and the University or its agents can use the rhetoric of
student rights, to force the feminists out.  After all, how can one teach a
women's studies course, including violence about women, without upsetting
men?  Not and be honest about it.
Sadly,
Pauline

 
Dear WMST-L:
Without having read all of the strands of this thread, I'm jumping in with an
observation in response to Jaime Grant's question: How would a class on Woman
as Body change if there were one man in it? Ten?
Having been in a number of women-only spaces over the past thirty years (from
convents to domestic violence programs to university classrooms), one of the
things that never ceases to amaze, confound, annoy, outrage me is the way
that men/males' concerns, perceptions, opinions become central regardless of
their physical absence.
I believe that asking women students what they believe to be important about
men's (physical) presence is a good opportunity to raise a number of issues.
Among them are: 1)the ubiquitousness of male concerns, 2) the fact that
relations between and among women and men shape everything from the politics
of program/course-naming to safety in relationships (whether hetero or same
sex) to what women think of their (and other women's) bodies, and 3) the
opportunity to debunk the (never-ending) characterization of women's studies
as male-bashing and/or group therapy.  Internalized male gazes/world views
are part and parcel of every women's studies setting.  I am in favor of
making this reality explicit, rather than implicit.
Frances E. Wood
Institute for Women's Studies
Emory University, Atlanta, GA
fwood01  @  emory.edu

 
This is a timely thread for me in rather concrete ways and I write
seeking thoughts on how to best deal w/ particular consequences of
(some) men in women's studies courses.
 
Background.  I teach a Feminist Theory and the Law Course at a law
school.  I've taught the course five or six times now having had from
one to five men in a course no larger than 22 students.  Until this
quarter I've never had to deal with a student who was hostile to the
basic premises of the course.  This quarter my class has a particularly
wide range of backgrounds, including
one student with a women's studies major, several who have had 3-5
women's studies classes, and a couple complete novices (math/physics and
business majors).  Of the five men two express considerable doubt about
whether women lack power/are subordinated/are discriminated against
(however you want to phrase it) in our society.   (In a discussion of
Marilyn Frye's birdcage article, one expressed the view that the most
powerful people in our society are beautiful young women because they
can get hired for their looks with no talent/skills.)
 
My Immediate Concerns.
1)  Self-protection.  I'm likely to be up for tenure next year and
would prefer to avoid any major blow-ups.
 
2)  Time management/Responding to journals.   For at least one of the
male students, responding to the substance of his journal in a
serious/constructive way
is likely to take disproportionate amounts of time.  Would need to sort
out his assumptions, analyze logical flaws, marshal information.  I
suspect it will be hard to respond on any more superficial level, and I
don't want to generate complaints about discrimination against men by
not commenting.  (Though I suppose lengthy comments might have the same
result!)  And I wouldn't mind doing it if I thought my comments
would have any effect. But I don't want to get all my energy redirected
towards him and not the rest of the class.
 
3)  Class discussion.  In general this will be a challenging class to
manage because of the wide range of backgrounds/perspectives.  I'm
already concerned that the more advanced students are/will be totally
bored as I try to make sure the novices aren't totally lost.  I don't
want to aggravate that problem by continually getting off on threshhold
issues.
 
Any specific teaching suggestions from people who have
successfully faced these challenges much appreciated.
 
 
*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*
 
Debbie Maranville,  Director, Unemployment Law Clinic
U. of Washington, School of Law
4045 Brooklyn Ave N.E.    Box 354563     Seattle, WA  98105
PH  (206) 543-3434          FAX  (206 685-2388
 
Internet:  <maran  @  u.washington.edu>
 
*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=**=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*

 
This is in part a response to the questions about men in women's studies
classes, and partly a bit about the role of response journals in the
women's studies classroom.
 
1) Men students: I've experienced both the annoying and the best sides of
this.
1) men students who either pout, but keep quiet "b/c the course
is part of a distribution requirement and I don't want to risk
'antagonizing' the instructor who, even though she may seem fair, really
can't be b/c she's a feminist" (many will NOT open their mouths during
class discussions); write the most ill-formed and informed
"confessions of my sexism" pieces and turn them in as journal entires
thinking that they'll "receive" a good grade it they can just
self-flagellate ENOUGH; and/or were constantly in my office asking me
"what I wanted from them"...my answer that their work should reflect
careful consideration of course materials, their own research, and
contemporary discourse about gender issues was pretty much met with
suspicion.
 
2) men students from a variety of backgrounds who really engaged in the
course and who connected the topics and issues we studied to their own
relationships with mothers, SOs, daughters, friends, and student
colleagues. It is my experience that the men who get the most out of and
are comfortable members of women's studies courses ususally have life
experiences off the "traditional" family/high school/college track or
come from families where "feminist" principles (thought they may not have
been articulated as such) were emphasized. There is a significant portion
of the rising generation of men who really want to figure out how to not
oppress and contribute to the ongoing oppression of women, and figure out
how to live more satisfying lives as men. It is not "for" them that I skew
my women's studies courses toward "gender studies;" it is because I really
believe that feminist analysis and classroom practice must address not
just "partiarchy," but the real lives and experiences of real men in the
contexts of patriarchy, classism and racism. As one
of my very engaged white male students from a rural background (headed for
law school) said, "If I'm supposed to be so powerful and "oppressive," why
am I so afraid of the future when I look at how miserable my divorced
older brother is and how unsatisfied my father seems? I don't want that,
but I see myself becoming that." (paraphrase)
I know I'm starting to babble here, but the latter "real lives/real
men" thing is why I find that _Bastard Out of Carolina_ works so well in
an intro wmst course -- Allison makes so clear that complexity and
humanity of even her most brutal male characters, and tries to understand
the complex of gendered social factors that made them (and the women,
especially) this way, even as her semi-autobio young protagonist is
nurtured backhandedly by and fights with every tool availble to her her
family atmosphere and her stepfather's assaults. I think it's really key
for students to analyze how both women AND men are interpellated within
patriarchy...makes discussing equal rights, equal resonsibilites, history,
activism and legislation much richer, imho.
 
I was at first surprised that some of the most engaging and
pleasurable-to-work-with xy WMST students have been young former military
men from religiously conservative working-class backgrounds. (These guys
were particularly concerned with learning how to encourgage their wives,
girlfriends and daughters: When one guy's financee wanted to drop out of
school b/c "I'm going to be your wife and you'll take care of me," he
talked her out of that notion using essays about women and poverty and
the economics of sexism from the reader! That guy blew my mind all
semester. Another -- who was very concerned about how to foster his
daughters' self-esteem as they grew up -- did a really fine piece of
research on the institutional
responses of the military to recent high-profile sexual harassment cases.)
 
That, I think, is the key to the first meetings/section of any wmst class,
especially intro classes: explaining the history of women's studies and
helping students -- women and men alike -- figure out their stake in the
project of analyzing gender relations on personal --> institutional
levels, and their intersections with discourses of race, class and
sexuality.
 
On a practical level, though, one does have to keep these excited guy
students from monopoliZing  discussion.
It's fun to watch the women students "handle" that matter after we talk
about communication style and claiming discursive space ;)
 
Journals, though... what sorts of successes have people had requiring
students to keep "response journals"? I've found that no matter how much I
stress that entries should be RESPONSES to readings, class discussions,
related cultural-political events, etc, they always devolve at some point
into ultra-confessional mode. I realize that these sorts of personal
realizations are very important, but I feel very uncomfortable being my
students' confessor... often like I have them under uncomfortable
surveillance... I know that would make me feel weird were I in their
shoes... I mean, how do you "evaluate" that stuff?
 
I've already decided that the next time I have an opportunity to teach an
intro wmst (if I do), the response journal will not be a formal part of
the course curriculum. In order to "justify" the time it takes to respond
to journals, I find I must weight them more that I think is appropriate or
pedagogically responsible. I'd much rather students just come to office
hours fairly regularly...coversation, not "confession." I've also had
success with offering students the *option* of pretty intense oral exams
in wmst intro courses.
 
 
                               Crystal Kile
    Education Coordinator, Newcomb College Center for Research on Women
   ckile  @  mailhost.tcs.tulane.edu http://www.tulane.edu/~wc/text/www.html
       "Cyborg or goddess, goddess or cyborg? Decisions, decisions"

 
On Sat, 18 Jan 1997 21:44:58 -0500 Deborah Maranville wrote:
 
>Until this quarter I've never had to deal with a student who was hostile to the
> basic premises of the course.  (snip) and
 
For at least one of the
> male students, responding to the substance of his journal in a
> serious/constructive way
> is likely to take disproportionate amounts of time.  Would need to sort
> out his assumptions, analyze logical flaws, marshal information.  I
> suspect it will be hard to respond on any more superficial level, and I
> don't want to generate complaints about discrimination against men by
> not commenting.  (Though I suppose lengthy comments might have the same
> result!)  And I wouldn't mind doing it if I thought my comments
> would have any effect. But I don't want to get all my energy redirected
> towards him and not the rest of the class.
 
************************************
 
Just a brief comment on this from my experience of teaching a class last
 semester
which, though not part of a women's studies program, used a feminist approach
which validated the subjectivity of the students as well as their "objective"
performance, focusing on what Peter Lyman refers to as "the history we live" as
 a
means to come into knowledge.  As instructor I occupied a position where my own
life experiences were part of the course discussion, where I did not foreground
 only
strength or knowing but also vulnerability and not knowing.  Emotions were
considered legitimate and not excluded from expression.  There were fourteen
students.  Although our process (and there was heavy emphasis on process as
much as content of the course) was not easy (and did in some cases appear to be
about to blow up), thirteen of those students rose to the challenge.  Attendance
 was
very high; likewise with engagement.  Some rather incredible papers were
produced which included emotion and subjecitivity.  We had one lone dissenter:
 a
man who sat and steamed through the whole thing.
 
As a class, and as individuals, we attempted to deal with this in two ways.
 First, by
engaging with him and his issues.  This generated a lot of anger in the class as
 
other students, especially women, felt that too much attention was being
 lavished
on him compared to folks who were really prepared to move ahead with things as I
 
had set them up.  The other response was to ignore him and move ahead in which
case his angry silence filled the room in a way which was just as profoundly
dominating of the class as if he was actually talking.  In other words, he "won"
 on
both counts.  It was tremendously frustrating.  I did not solve this dilemma.
 In the
end, after the grades were safely in, this student asked to go for 'coffee' with
 me to
discuss the class.  I suggested that it was a bit late but went anyway.  He then
 took
the opportunity to tell me that all of his difficulties were due to my
 incompetence,
my lack of strength.  The fact that my pedagogy includes these things, or at
 least
discussion of their meaning, seemed to have completely eluded him.  With some
people, nothing works.
 
 Finally, I do recommend an article by Jane Tompkins called "Pedagogy of the
Distressed" in College English, volume 52 (6) October 1990 pp 653-660 which
addresses some of these issues in a rather wonderful way.
 
Good luck!
 
Kathryn Church
kathryn.church  @  utoronto.ca
 

              Department" <JLLOYD  @  ACSPR1.ACS.BROCKPORT.EDU>

 
We have a requirement that all students have to take a course that addresses
women's scholarship and women's issues.  Many interpret that as having
to take a Women's Studies course, and consequently I always have at least
one third (12+) men in my Intro class.  I mostly find this positive,
as long as I insist that this is a woman-centered class (and explain
what that means), and begin by defining and naming male-bashing and what
it isn't, otherwise the women do not speak.  I do regret the loss of
women's space, and have to work hard to make sure the men do not speak
for more than their share of time, but my experience has made me realize
that unless we educate men we will never end discrimination against women,
and many men who think feminists are feminazis can be persuaded that
they are not.  Our feminist theory course does not fulfil the Persepctives
on Women requirement--we deliberately keep it this way so that it contains
only committed women's studies minors and they can find a small woman-centere
d group there.
Jenny Lloyd
SUNY College at Brockport
jlloyd  @  acspr1.acs.brockport.edu

 
On Sat, 18 Jan 1997, FEWood wrote:
 
> Dear WMST-L:
> Without having read all of the strands of this thread, I'm jumping in with an
> observation in response to Jaime Grant's question: How would a class on Woman
> as Body change if there were one man in it? Ten?
> Having been in a number of women-only spaces over the past thirty years (from
> convents to domestic violence programs to university classrooms), one of the
> things that never ceases to amaze, confound, annoy, outrage me is the way
> that men/males' concerns, perceptions, opinions become central regardless of
> their physical absence.
> I believe that asking women students what they believe to be important about
> men's (physical) presence is a good opportunity to raise a number of issues.
> Among them are: 1)the ubiquitousness of male concerns, 2) the fact that
> relations between and among women and men shape everything from the politics
> of program/course-naming to safety in relationships (whether hetero or same
> sex) to what women think of their (and other women's) bodies, and 3) the
> opportunity to debunk the (never-ending) characterization of women's studies
> as male-bashing and/or group therapy.  Internalized male gazes/world views
> are part and parcel of every women's studies setting.  I am in favor of
> making this reality explicit, rather than implicit.
> Frances E. Wood
 
although i think frances makes some very good point above, i do get
quite tired of this redutctionist, essentialist construction
of "women" and "men" as if they were all clones in their respective
categories.
as anyone with any inkling of how oppression systems work,
any group that dominates will do it ideologically too.
 
i've seen such horribly small minded women in women's studies who,
while bashing all good and bad and in between men alike,
were only concerned with their incredibly petty, priveleged,
white, able-bodied, U.S. American, etc. concerns and behaved in these
respects exactly as the "men" they so insistently criticized as
they monopolized the frames of the discussions and silenced
voices from  more disenfranchised "women" and "men", many of whom
will never have a voice in the classroom because they are not
part of the priveleged few who gets to sit in these classes.
 
so, yes, i think it is important to stop and think how
"men" monopolize a classroom whether they are there or not,
but i think it's also a good opportunity to investigate how
others may do it too.
 
personally i find the spectacle quite tiresome.
 
Vera Britto
(fiatlux  @  umich.edu - http://www.umich.edu/~fiatlux)
...........................................................................
Le Bret: Si tu laissais un peu ton ame mousquetaire, la fortune et la
gloire...  Cyrano:  Et que faudrait-il faire? Chercher un protecteur
puissant, prendre un patron, et, comme un lierre obscur que circonvient
un tronc et s'en fait un tuteur en lui lechant l'ecorce, grimper par
ruse au lieu de s'elever par force? Non, merci! Non, merci! Non, merci!
Mais... chanter, rever, rire, passer, etre seul, etre libre... oui.
                "Cyrano de Bergerac" - Edmond Rostand

Organization: CCC, The University of Nottingham

 
It sounds to me as if the situation in the States is alot worse than
here in Britain. Sure, some men who are "compelled" to do women's
studies courses have to be convinced as to the value of the course,
but through this many women (and men) are able to explore their own
reasons for doing women's studies in the first place. After all, it's
all about education, is it not?

 
Dear Vera Britto:
    While I appreciate your cautions about essentialism, I was responding
to the ways the categories were set up in the initial posting(s).  I have had
more than my share of classroom experiences with solipsistic, narcissistic,
uninformed, uncurious dominant folk.  As a member of multiple marginalized
and oppressed groups (queer, black, female, "non-traditional-aged,"
classically-trained, ... ad nauseum) I tire of the whining of the privileged,
as well.  To say that I experience interlocking oppressions would be a gross
understatement.  Nonetheless, I am keenly aware of the ways that I both share
in privilege, and am held in suspicion for being in the classroom at all.  As
Audre Lorde has reminded, I wasn't meant to survive, anyway!
    Frequently, I wonder about the masochism involved for someone such as
myself pursuing a life in the academy.  While I am dismayed by the lack of
thoughtfulness that is evidenced by students in (some) women's studies
settings, I am near despair when I reflect on my experiences with some of the
profs--women and men--who lack awareness of/consideration for the ways that
ideological baggage and assumptions (their own as well as students') shape
the classroom environment.
    Your response to me is a reminder of the limits of this medium for
locating oneself in a variety of discussions.  As one whose work deals with
the complexities of subjectivities and the unhelpfulness of rigied labeling,
I am grateful for your paying attention and taking the time to respond.
Regards,
Frances E. Wood
Institute for Women's Studies
Emory University, Atlanta, GA
fwood01  @  emory.edu

 
On Mon, 20 Jan 1997, FEWood wrote:
 
> Dear Vera Britto:
>     While I appreciate your cautions about essentialism, I was responding
> to the ways the categories were set up in the initial posting(s).  I have had
 
Just to note - although i replied to your post in particular, it was
more as an entryway in the thread with the objective to post my comments
to all the previous posts, rather than to single out your post.
i should have made that more clear, because my intention was
really to comment on the thread.
 
Regards,
Vera Britto

 
Two comments:
 
        Kathryn Church's experience of having a seething, defensive man take
up tremendous space in her course leads me to wonder why we don't say, at
the outset of our classes, that this course is not for people who think that
sexism does not exist.  I make it clear that my women's studies courses
hinge on the beliefs that sexism, racism, homophobia and classism operate in
American society today in ways that primarily disempower their targets:
women, people of color, queers and poor people.  Those in the dominant
relative position -- men, whites, straights and people of means live
distorted, sometimes stunted lives due to these systems as well, but they
also accrue privilege and power in their wake.  This isn't something I'm
going to debate in my class, so folks who aren't there should take another
class.  In her book, Truth or Dare, Starhawk says:  don't leave a group open
to everybody if you aren't open to everybody.  For me, that translates into:
get rid of the high maintenance male who is going to be a huge drain.
 
        Not to be overly 'essentialist' about it (per Vera Britto's
comment), but the social constructions that make men 'men' often make for
awful male participants in women's studies courses.  How we confront that
phenomenon is a different issue from what we do with women in the practice
of (as Barbara Smith long ago put it) female self aggrandizement rather than
feminist query.  Personally, I'd prefer to confront these women (by which, I
mean have their peers confront them primarily) in an all-women space so that
they get a lesson in the power and the limits of 'sisterhood.'  Having an
angry male and a self-aggrandizing woman in the same class often gives each
of them support, fuel, and a means to muddy the waters.
 
 
        Jaime
        jgrant  @  tui.edu

 
>         Kathryn Church's experience of having a seething, defensive man take
> up tremendous space in her course leads me to wonder why we don't say, at
> the outset of our classes, that this course is not for people who think that
> sexism does not exist.
 
Gosh, I am finding that the majority of women in my Women's Studies Intro
this semester (and last semester) think that sexism does not exist, at least
at the outset of the class.  We are just now starting the semester
(discussed Marilyn Frye's pieces on "Oppression" and "Sexism" yesterday) and
MOST of the class was angry and disbelieving and thought that the books were
"outdated" and that things "just aren't like that any more (if they ever
were)."  They often are interested in studying sexy "gender bending" stuff
when they get into the class, but are angry that I make them read "old
fashioned" things about plain old sexism and oppression.  Many of them HATE
(& resent) the idea that they are not free to pull their own strings, and
want very much to believe that the only limitations on their own
possibilities in the world are simply their own failures of imagination.
 
My own experience is that this is becoming more and more so every year that
I teach, and that teaching Women's Studies is becoming harder and harder
because of it.  At least back when WmSt was more "marginal" in the
curriculum, I think that the women who did take it were more likely to
already accept the starting premises noted above.  But as it becomes more
"mainstream" I find that this is less and less so.
 
It isn't just the men in the class...
 
Ruth
ginzberg  @  beloit.edu

 
I'm teaching a composition class this semester titled "Gender and Identity."
I started out the class by explaining that the majority of the readings
would be Feminist in nature. I then explained that anyone who didn't feel
comfortable with this topic, or didn't feel as though he/she could handle it
maturely should drop this class and add a comp class with a different theme.
I thought this "disclaimer" would help, but it hasn't. Because the class is
a required comp class, I have about 5-7 men in each section (out of 22
total). I've found that the men will not admit to any sort of sexism in any
arenas we've been discussing (work, education, home...) and the women feel
angry about this.  In one class, a male student has been openly hostile
towards me and the subject matter. He disagrees with every assignment I
give, every discussion I start. It doesn't matter what I say, he disagrees.
The problem is that he is greatly diminishing my authority in the other
students' eyes. The women in the class are intimidated by him, and will not
discuss certain things that may "upset" the male student. He stayed after
class one day to talk to me, and basically stood in my face trying to
intimidate me. Very threatening. I talked to my comp director, who suggested
I send the guy to him. Here's my problem:  I don't want to do this, because
it sends the message to this kid that as a woman, I can't handle this
problem, and I need to send the problem to a man to solve. I find this
especially damaging since I'm teaching a class that focuses on Feminism.
Does anyone have any suggestions as to how I can 1)reaffirm my authority to
the class 2)let this guy know he has to deal with me, and that I can handle
the problem effectively?

 
At 11:47 AM 1/21/97 -0600, you wrote:
>Does anyone have any suggestions as to how I can 1)reaffirm my authority to
>the class 2)let this guy know he has to deal with me, and that I can handle
>the problem effectively?
>
What you are speaking about is an all too common problem.  I don't think
you can solve it yourself because you don't have the power.  You are in fact
lucky that someone higher up will support you.  I had no such luck.  Perhaps
you could present it as an issue in hierarchy rather than a male female one.
Just as we turn to the courts in the cases of woman abuse rape etc., with
very mixed rssults, not to do so would leave victims to the mercy of the
victimizers.  As MacKinnon said, if we would  only work with institutions
that are not patriarchl,there would be no place to turn.
 
Sadly, Pauline B. Bart

 
>It isn't just the men in the class...
>
>Ruth
>ginzberg  @  beloit.edu
 
I agree that women's studies is all but impossible to teach now if one
tells the truth, especially if one talls the truth about male violence
against women.  I have made it perfectly clear that the course is feminist,
that we are not going to argue about whether women are subordinated, that
they shouldn't take the class if they don't believe this etc.  I put it on
my syllabus and tell the class. IT MAKES NO DIFFERENCE. One student left
when I said they would have to vote in the presidential election; I had to
withdraw that assignment when a man made a fuss about it and I didn't want
the hassle.  But you should know that I have been teaching women's studies
since l969 (Women in Society and Literature) UC Berkeley, Dept of Sociology,
and I have given up after last semester piled on top of being kicked out of
the Univ Ill at Chicago with the cooperation of the head of Women's Studies
and having the head of Women's Studies  support the man against me every
time he complained last semester.
Perhaps we oldtimers, who were in women's liberation, which was about social
change, and who now feel like dinasours although we know that what we say is
true, should have a support group ourselves to keep from feeling that our
lives were wasted.    Remember-its not a private problem but a public issue.
Love, Pauline

 
On Tue, 21 Jan 1997, Michelle Delaine Lundgren wrote:
 
> I'm teaching a composition class this semester titled "Gender and Identity."
> I started out the class by explaining that the majority of the readings
> would be Feminist in nature. I then explained that anyone who didn't feel
> comfortable with this topic, or didn't feel as though he/she could handle it
> maturely should drop this class and add a comp class with a different theme.
> I thought this "disclaimer" would help, but it hasn't.
 
One direction to go with this message is pedagogy, what to do in the
class.  But I couldn't help noticing that this message also opens up the
question of how to avoid the problems that are arising in this class.  If
the course is titled "Gender and Identity," then in my view men ought to
feel welcome in the class and they ought to expect readings that address
issues that they feel are significant for them.  Men do have genders, and
they do have identities.  So it is inappropriate, given the course title,
to then say on the first day of class that the class will cover primarily
feminist readings.  If this is what the class is about, then the title
ought to be something like "Feminist Perspectives on Gender and
Ethnicity."  Likely fewer men would enroll.  This is basically a matter of
truth in advertising.
 
Re:  encouraging men to drop and then add another class.  Well, on my
campus most of the students work.  Their schedules are very complicated,
trying to combine work hours, family, classes, and studying.  Changes in
schedules are often very difficult to work out.  Also (taking the same
line as in the message below) to drop the class is an admission that one
"can't handle this problem."  Looking back, there were classes that as an
undergraduate I should have dropped, but it would have been hard for me as
a student to admit this to myself during the first week.  Instead, I gave
it my best shot--and got some poor grades.
 
> intimidate me. Very threatening. I talked to my comp director, who suggested
> I send the guy to him. Here's my problem:  I don't want to do this, because
> it sends the message to this kid that as a woman, I can't handle this
> problem, and I need to send the problem to a man to solve. I find this
 
> Does anyone have any suggestions as to how I can 1)reaffirm my authority to
> the class 2)let this guy know he has to deal with me, and that I can handle
> the problem effectively?
 
Some quick suggestions:  (1) Reaffirm your authority by grounding it not
in your own identity as a woman and as a feminist, but instead in the
skills that students expect to get from the class and from college:
writing, speaking, being able to express an opinion and support it with
evidence and argument;  (2) Demonstrate your confidence in your own
position by being as open-minded as possible towards other positions.  (3)
Treat this student's questions as legitimate questions, but don't respond
to them as questions raised for you personally.  Instead, respond to the
questions from the perspective of skills--suggest to the student that he
write on the issue, or that he research on the issue, or suggest something
that he can read that will show him that the issue is complicated.  (4)
Show that you are familiar with his perspective, e.g., "The argument that
you are making is one that has sometimes been used against feminists.
Indeed, you might be interested in this chapter or article, in which that
anti-feminist argument is made very well.  If you read this, it would
provide some support for your point of view.  But I would encourage you to
also read this other chapter or article, which is a reply to the evidence
and arguments raised in the first one.  Then let's talk some more, or
perhaps at that point you will feel ready to write on this topic."
 
_____________
 
I've followed this discussion about men in women's studies courses
with considerable interest, as this has also been a public issue on my own
campus (SUNY at Buffalo).  I appreciate all the good suggestions that have
been made.  It seems to me (my two cents worth) that the stance one ought
to take and what one does pedagogically, etc. should depend on what sort
of women's studies course we are talking about.  There seem to be two
types:  (1) general education courses, in which men ought to be welcomed;
and (2) courses in women's studies programs, some of which might
reasonably serve primarily women.  Men ought to be encouraged to
participate in and contribute to the first group of courses; but in the
case of the second group of courses, perhaps some discouragement is more
appropriate, depending on the focus of the course.
 
Jack Meacham
SUNY at Buffalo

 
On Fri, 17 Jan 1997, Krista Scott wrote:
 
> I replied privately to the prof who requested info about men in the classes,
> but I'll share my thoughts with you.  I have only had overwhelmingly
> positive experiences with men in wmst, both as teachers of courses, guest
> lecturers, and students. Two wonderful profs who were men successfully
> taught feminist philosophy and Women in Sport.  Part of the solution is to
> discuss the inherent issues right at the beginning of the class.  One prof
> sets groundrules for class discussion.  This eliminates the men who take the
> classes to "meet chicks".  A feminist awareness and pedagogy does not have
> to preclude gender; I've met many female profs who are decidedly
 anti-feminist.
> Actually, I think the time has come for Men's Studies.  Not the Iron John
> drums-in-the-woods crap, but a forum where men are able to use feminist
> techniques of deconstruction and critique to examine male gender
> expectations and stereotypes.
 
I totally agree with Krista.  I am currently teaching a Women and Politics
course where one third of the students are male.  They are adding a
positive element to the class and have helped to enrich our discussion.
In the past, I have taucht this class with and without men enrolled.  The
presence of men has enhanced the quality of the discussion and the process
of learning.
Gloria T. Cohen-Dion
Department of Political Science
Bloomsburg University
Bloomsburg, PA.
gcohen  @  planetx.bloomu.edu

 
I've frequently encountered aggressive, hostile male (and female)
students responses to lectures on feminist theory or anything related
to the women's movement.  And being that I'm only about 5 feet tall
and look younger than most of my students, asserting authority can be
a problem at times.  I teach Communications and insert feminist
theory into almost all my courses and found that the most effective
approach is to acknowledge these hostile views as valid (as another
poster just stated, sorry I forgot names).  I rephrase what they say
and use facts, figures, theory to argue otherwise.  One class, a
student raised his hand and stated, "We all know that the woman's
movement was started by a bunch of ugly ladies who couldn't get any."
This was my second college course I ever taught.  Well, I lost
control of the class at that point and it was at the end of class so
I just let them go early after trying, unsuccesfully go get them back
on track.  But the next class, I started off the class by writing his
statment on the board and handing out parts of Robin lakoff's book on
women and language.  I had them read that in  class, and then
dissected his quote using her approach.  This was very effective and
I now use this example in my intro course when discussing gender and
language.   I also start out my lectures on feminism by asking the
class, who thinks of themself as a feminist.  no one raises their
hand (or maybe one).  and then i ask, who believes men and women
deserve equal rights, etc.  all or most raise their hands.  then i
ask, what connotations does the word feminist raise in your head?
and then i get stuff like -- lesbians, don't shave their legs, hate
men, etc. all that awful stuff, and i let them say it.  then i
lecture about why this is so, how come powerful women get this image,
why does the media constantly talk about hillary clinton's hair.  i
don't have the cites offhand, but julia wood definitely talks about
this -- how powerful women in the media must also be pretty or have
other stereotypical female qualities to be accepted.  anyway, i
realize your course isn't media related, but i hope these examples
help.  I am constantly dealing with this and am always trying to
figure out ways to teach those hostile to feminist theory (and/or to
a young female professor).
 
Amy Sarch
Communications
College of Staten Island/CUNY

 
Michelle - instead of trying to emphasize your authority vis-a-vis your
resistant male student directly I would spend a few class sections
de-emphasizing his 'voice' - either by asking everyone to respond to
a particular text or question or by limiting the number of responses
a person is allowed in any class session.  (I found that this actually
encourages the 'quiet' students to talk - your intimidated students
may also be angry at him for taking up so much class time.)  I had
a very 'progressive' male student last semester who not only talked a
_lot_ but also tried to 'show me up'.  I finally resorted to giving
out paper 'chits' that represented one turn.  It did get the other
students talking and made clear what the problem was.  I only wish
I had done it earlier!  He had very good insights but was also very
dominating and controlling, which incensed some of the students and
made it difficult for me to get more people to voice their opinions
until I used this exercise.  Good luck - and I hope your weather
gets better!  Barbara Scott Winkler  WINKLER  @  wvnvms.wvnet.edu

 
>I disagree that going to the "male higher-up" in such a situation is the
best, much less the only solution.  Keep him informed in case the student
tries to attack you in other ways--or if it comes down to you telling him to
leave the classroom...and document what happens... but from the limited
knowledge I have from your posting, it seems there are a myriad of
strategies for diffusing his impact on the classroom.  Sending him to
another guy--no matter how we couch it--will only affirm him, either that he
is a victim of a nasty feminist, or that only men have the authority to tell
him what to do.
 
First, he did tacitly agree to a contract upon entering the class, ie. the
syllabus, so if he disagrees arbitrarily with assignments, you don't have to
respond or justify yourself.
 
Do you know the other students well enough to have a sense of what they
might say to this guy--given the opportunity and time to formulate a
response (which often does not exist in the pressured context of a
classroom)?  Could you (without being obvious) devote class time to allowing
them to respond and take on this guy themselves?  Are the other students
really as timid as you say in the post?  Try throwing the questions he asks
directly of you open to the class.  "What does anyone else think?"  If he
goes after whoever responds, don't allow him to engage in one on one.  Go
round-robin around the class or something--anything to deprive him of the
floor.  If he insists, you have grounds for telling him to leave for being
disruptive.
 
Or try just nodding at him when he speaks, but going on to the next person
or comment--sometimes I say we should "collect responses" before responding
to any one argument to see how the group is doing with the issue.
 
Do you have any ground rules about discussion--how many times one person can
speak?  If not, make some--even if they are targeted at him--be subtle about
it.  This will give you the "official" grounds to tell him to leave if he
disrupts what the class has agreed to as a process.
 
Often, when we are discussing issues that I know students will disagree
strongly about (I teach in a very conservative area) like pornography or
abortion, I suggest the students--rather than asserting opinions or
challenging one another one on one-- turn their comments into questions to
be posed to the group...even if it is as simple as adding "don't you think
that?"  One student translated her very settled opinion that abortion is
murder into the following question: "What would life be like for women if
we, as a society, all agreed that abortion is murder?"--for example.  She
surprised herself and the class with the discussion that followed.  It
encourages a spirit of inquiry.
 
We should be aggressive--even "authoritarian"-- with destructive and
hostile students in the classroom when other students' classroom experiences
are being negated or ruined.  If they cannot be encouraged to engage with
the course, their impact can be diffused.
 
Good luck.  I responded at length because your problem struck a nerve rubbed
raw by experience and because I really disagree with the strategy of sending
the student to the higher-up.  I look forward to reading about other
strategies for making our classrooms "safe for conflict."
Renee
 
 
Dr. Renee Heberle, heberlrj  @  potsdam.edu
Politics Department/Women's Studies Program
309a Satterlee Hall
SUNY Potsdam
Potsdam, NY  13676
Office Phone:  315-267-2555
Home Phone:  315-265-2513

 
> In one class, a male student has been openly hostile
> towards me and the subject matter. He disagrees with every assignment I
> give, every discussion I start. It doesn't matter what I say, he disagrees.
> The problem is that he is greatly diminishing my authority in the other
> students' eyes. The women in the class are intimidated by him, and will not
> discuss certain things that may "upset" the male student.
 
Nearly every university has a policy for dropping unruly or disruptive
students from a class.  My present university allows a professor to drop a
student without notice if s/he is disrupting the class or otherwise limiting
the educational experience for the rest of the students.  Seems to me this
man certainly qualifies!  Locate the policy.  Then you can either just drop
him, or, if you want to try something potentially more beneficial for this
student, point the policy out to him and tell him that if he wishes to stay
in the class he must prepare a written Learning Contract in which he clearly
states what he will do to participate and contribute positively to the
professor's and the other students' experience of the course.  No
negotiations at this point.
 
Sally Harrison-Pepper
Professor of Interdisciplinary Studies
Affiliate Professor of Women's Studies
Miami University, Oxford OH  45056

 
Hi Michelle,
 
I too have taught composition courses which use feminist texts to prompt
class discussion, analysis, and paper assignments.  I think you're brave to
state your intentions upfront:  I let my students know that one of my
fields is feminist theory, and that I tend to have a feminist approach to
texts, but I don't (or at least I haven't yet) invited them to leave it
they can't cope.
 
In any case, I had two thoughts on your problem.  One would be to use a
text that would make that male student aware of the ways gender are treated
differently (and move from there to the awareness of the power implications
of those differences).  One assignment that has worked really well for me
is to have the students read Jamaica Kincaid's Girl.  It's very short--less
than 2 pages--so you can even read it in class.  Then, once they figure out
what's happening in the text (it's a mother's diatribe toward her daughter,
telling her what she should and should not do) I have them imagine (and
write) a similar discourse from their own mother or father.
 
In my experience, the students write interesting autobiographical pieces
which then allow them to see far more clearly how gendered are many
parental expectations, despite how little they may have thought they had
been influenced by such things.  That gives them a first step toward seeing
how gender affects people on a larger social scale as well, and it allows a
starting point toward thinking about how those expectations may be sexist
(and what sexism means).
 
The Kincaid piece is in ReReading America, eds. Colombo, Cullen, and Lisle
(and probably many other places as well).
 
My second thought was that, speaking from experience, it might not be such
a bad idea to have that student speak with the director, especially if you
could make it a mutual meeting with the three of you present, discuss your
concerns with the director ahead of time and make sure that he knows
exactly what you want to get across to the student, and make sure the two
of you are working together to achieve those ends.  That way you would
still be in control and the student would get the point that your approach
is legitimate and administratively sanctioned.
 
I had a really awful seen once where I had to confront a (male) student who
cheated on an exam.  The Chair of the program (male) said he should be
present though originally the professor (female) and I wanted to handle it
on our own.  In that particular case, both the professor and I were really
glad for the Chair's presence especially, as it turned out, because he was
male.  The student was Asian American and apparently (I'm speaking from
gross ignorance based on this one example and what I've heard since), being
caught cheating is culturally construed as far more shameful than it would
be for many white Americans.  And it's especially shameful for a male to be
caught by a female.  Having a male there in the position of ultimate
authority somehow served to make the student conscious of his error without
also making him suicidal (at least that's the impression I got).
 
Good luck!
Lisa