Can "Guys" Refer to Women and Girls?

The following discussion of the use of "guys" to refer to women and
girls took place on WMST-L in late April 2002.  Because of its
length, it has been divided into two parts.  For more WMST-L files
available on the Web, see the WMST-L File Collection.

PAGE 1 OF 2

I am writing an article for BITCH: FEMINIST RESPONSE TO POP CULTURE on the
use of "guys" to designate women and girls, as in "you guys." According to
research I've conducted, this usage has become more widespread in casual
discourse over the last two decades-during the same period in which
non-sexist language has become more widely accepted and used. When I discuss
this topic with my Women's Studies students and with friends, their
reactions are often defensive. It seems that identifying women as "guys" is
perceived as a hip, relaxed usage that many people are reluctant to take
seriously.

This topic has come up on the list before as part of discussions on sexist
language, and I have mined the archives for useful material. (I learned
here, for example, about the website www.youall.freeservers.com, dedicated
to eradicating this usage.) I'm still interested in hearing from individuals
who have any stories or comments to share about the use of "you guys"
(discussions you've had, reactions to the topic). I'm wondering if there may
be any variations in the extent to which "you guys" is used in different
parts of the country. In Southern California, we hear it all the time. Is it
being used as widely in other areas? I'm also curious about how other
members of the list perceive this usage.

Please reply privately to me at audrey.bilger   AT   claremontmckenna.edu.

Audrey Bilger
Associate Professor of Literature
Claremont McKenna College
Claremont, CA 91711

During a discussion of non-sexist language in a class a few years ago,
two young women, who probably would have called their political
perspective radical and feminist, complained about being called "you
guys". Their preferred form of address? Girls. That would have made me
angry in the olden days when I was learning my feminism, but I guess
times change all the time.

Dr. Darcy C. Plymire
Department of Kinesiology
Towson University
8000 York Rd.
Towson, MD 21252
dplymire   AT   towson.edu
410-704-3172

The correct usage in Chicago [where I grew up] is "youse guys."  Try
as I might, I cannot seem to eradicate this term from my vocabulary.
Since I have been in the South for over 25 years, I have tried to
substitute "y'all" but in times of crisis [like at the end of class
when I'm trying to remind the students of an assignment], youse guys
always slips out.   Maybe some aversion therapy with electroshock
would be useful..........?

--
Carol J. Burger, Ph.D.
Associate Professor
253 Lane Hall
Center for Interdisciplinary Studies - 0227
Virginia Tech, Blacksburg, VA 24061
Voice: 540-231-8808 ****** FAX: 540-231-7013
email: cjburger   AT   vt.edu
http://www.cis.vt.edu/ws/burger/CJBURGER.html

I hate to admit that, like Carol, I've slipped and used the term as
well.  I'm from New Jersey originally and grew up using the term as a
friendly one.  I try to correct myself in front of classes and quickly say
after my slip, "you all" or "all of you".  One more note -- hoping for
optimism -- maybe the young women in the other post were preferring
grrrrrrrlllls rather than girls over 'you guys'?
Alyson Buckman
abuckman   AT   saclink.csus.edu

Hi Audrey,

    Where I grew up (eastern Pa & Philly), and when, 1950s, you guys was the
standard white working class salutation.  I still use it -- in preference to
youse guys, which is what my grandmothers said.  I think there is a class
issue here, at least in the historical usage, if not the contemporary.  My
family moved to Virginia in 1961 where it was y'all and you-all.  I use all
of these today to address a group.

    Easiest to use is Japanese, mina-san, but doesn't ring a bell for most
Americans.

    Lois Helmbold

Hi all,
This is an interesting question: I always thought "you guys" was
marked by region and class.  I'm a rural midwesterner (Indiana) from
a lower working class background, and I grew up with the generic "you
guys."

I have tried to get rid of it, and usually I do OK.  I have
substituted "you all" (but not "y'all" because I am neither Southern
nor living in the South).  However, when I am at home with my
extended family, I fall right back into "you guys."  My students will
ask me why I say "you all," and I do tell them it is to avoid the
"guys."  They usually indicate that they find this amusing.

An aside: my mother, who uses the generic "you guys" often within our
family, is very offended when a teenager or young adult uses it to
refer to her in public (i.e., waiters in restaurants, sales clerks,
etc.).  Her reply?  "I'm not a guy."  I find it interesting that she
does not call the young person on the "disrespect" angle but, rather,
calls her/him on the gender angle.  Of course, this might be a
response to *me*, as I have been explicit about my discomfort with
being called "guys" as I am with "girl" (which, I know, marks my age,
feminist generation, and cultural background).  My mom and her
friends call each other "girl" and, when I speak of a friend or
acquaintance as a "woman," my mom will assume that I am speaking of
someone who is elderly.

I'll look forward to reading the article about this in Bitch.
Jeannie

P.S. Carol, misery loves company.  A couple of weeks ago, without
warning, the phrase "how's come?" (rather than "why?") came flying
out right out of my mouth in class.  My students fell out.
--

"[R]estrictive pedagogy comes from the belief that we are teaching
solely the subject matter, rather than the actual reality that we are
teaching live human beings."
        --Jyl Lynn Felman, *Never a Dull Moment: Teaching and the Art
of Performance*

Dr. Jeannie Ludlow
jludlow   AT   bgnet.bgsu.edu
Director of Undergraduate Program
American Culture Studies
107 East Hall, Bowling Green State U
Bowling Green OH 43403
(419)372-0176

I don't know if class is such a clear guide.  In both the public high school
& private girls (middle) school I attended in Cleveland's
middle/upper-middle class suburbs in the 1980s, we all said "you guys."
Jane

Jane Rothstein,
Ph.D. Candidate
Department of History and
Skirball Department of Hebrew and Judaic Studies
New York University
jr231   AT   nyu.edu
jane_rothstein   AT   mindspring.com

"Racing between mysticism and revolution..."
                     -- Phil Ochs

Hi, Audrey,

Although not always successful, I try to use the phrase "you gyns," or
"you gyns and guys" when in a mixed setting.  Always raises a few
eyebrows when people first hear it, but I have also noticed some of my
course participants have started to use the term themselves over the
years.

Cheers,

Steve

Steve Schacht
spschacht   AT   aol.com
http://www.nostatusquo.com/Schacht/

I nominate "y'all" as a perfect feminist solution to
two problems: the English language's lack of a plural
"you," and the related issue of trying to create a
plural "you" using gender-specific words like "you
guys." Or worse, "gals" and "girls."

Southerners out there who want to retain their
distinctiveness from the Yankee hordes who might soon
defect to our linguistic side can always retain rights
to my favorite bit of inclusive terminology: "all
y'all."

Bye now,
Julie Armstrong

It's possible that using "you guys" to include women and men represents
an advance. "Man" used to be used when supposedly the person was talking
of human beings, (as in "the rights of man", "man's achievements"). We
objected to such usage because it was obvious, despite claims to the
contrary from conservatives, that it really brought to mind  "male
humans", and women were not being included in whatever was being talked
about. That usage of "man" has declined considerably in the US,
although, judging from the Times Literary Supplement it continues in
England. While there was no possibility that the meaning of "man" could
ever be broadened to include women, so that when it was heard it would
immediately connote "person", the same is perhaps not true of "guy". It
used to refer just to males. If it now really has been broadened to
refer to both, that is because homosociality has been reduced,
especially on the job. And that's good.

--
******************
Barbara R. Bergmann    bbergman   AT   wam.umd.edu
Professor Emerita of Economics,
American University and University of Maryland
Tel 202-537-3036     Fax 202 686-3456
Mail to: 5430 41 Place NW, DC 20015
*******************

My guess is this changed from the 50's generation to the later ones.
In my youth it was marked as working class, but like many other
expressions, including ethnic ones, it later migrated into generic
American speech.

>I don't know if class is such a clear guide.  In both the public high school
>& private girls (middle) school I attended in Cleveland's
>middle/upper-middle class suburbs in the 1980s, we all said "you guys."
>Jane

--
Max Dashu   <maxdashu   AT   mindspring.com>
<http://www.suppressedhistories.net>
Global Women's Studies

[In response to Barbara Bergmann's message, above]

There is another possibility.  The word "girl" is derived from
an old English word, "gurle".  Gurle used to mean a young person
of either sex.  Maybe this word could be resuscitated, with or
without the e at the end, as a gender-inclusive term?  Its
feminine connotations may be less offensive and harmful than
masculine connotations of "guy".

Thomas Gramstad
thomas   AT   ifi.uio.no
Support the AnyBrowser campaign,
http://www.anybrowser.org/campaign/

It's my impression that the current usage of "you guys" or "guys" as a
generic is a product of the last 15 years or so.  Like Lois, I was
raised in a working class community during the 50's, at the other end
of Pa.--in Pittsburgh.  But we used "youse" as a generic sometimes,
or--even funnier, "yinze,"-often ironically; we never used "you guys."

It's very prevalent here in central Maryland, and it especially pains
me to hear women's studies majors use it (including some who
self-identify as lesbians).  I used to call attention to it, but it's
so widespread now that I seldom do that anymore.  I agree with
Audrey's perception that it grew up during the same years that some
improvements toward nonsexist language were being made. Chalk up
another victory for phallocentrism.

 Jo-Ann Pilardi     Towson Univ.  pilardi   AT   saber.towson.edu

----- Original Message -----

> It's my impression that the current usage of "you guys" or "guys" as a
generic
> is a product of the last 15 years or so.

"Hey you guys!" was the line shouted at the beginning of some children's
television series (Zoom?) that I recall watching in 1972 or '73.  The phrase
was intended as a come-all-ye for children of both sexes, not just boys. So
I would say its usage this way is at least 30 years old.

Ilana Nash
inash   AT   bgnget.bgsu.edu

At 12:30 PM 4/24/02 , Julie Armstrong wrote:
>I nominate "y'all" as a perfect feminist solution to
>two problems: the English language's lack of a plural
>"you," and the related issue of trying to create a
>plural "you" using gender-specific words like "you
>guys." Or worse, "gals" and "girls."

I would like to add an additional nomination for a feminist solution: "you
folks".  I use this designation most of the time.  Where I grew up (in
Honolulu, Hawaii, 1970s-1980s), the use of "you folks" to refer to couples
or mixed groups was widespread among all generations and socio-economic
classes, and I *rarely* heard "you guys".  Now that I live in Portland,
Oregon, I hear "you guys" much of the time, and it really grates on me,
especially when restaurant servers or sales clerks use it (or both feminist
and "respect" reasons).  What's even worse is questions that attempt to
make the term into a possessive, such as "I'll be right back with 'you
guys's' drinks."  You guys's?  Wherever did that come from?  In my
experience, it's been mostly teenagers who use the term in this way.  In
any case, I find it annoying and I often ask the clerk or server to use
"you folks" "you two" or "you all" instead.  There are several creative
options!

---- * ---- * ---- * ---- * ---- * ---- * ----
-Danyeke J. Swanson             http://www.bogon.net/dswanson
Post-bac student, philosophy         dswanson   AT   pdx.edu
"Nothing is really work unless you would rather do
something else."  - Sir James M. Barrie

At 12:33 PM 4/24/02, Steve Schacht wrote:
>Hi, Audrey, Although not always successful, I try to use the phrase "you
>gyns," or "you gyns and guys" when in a mixed setting. Always raises a few
>eyebrows when people first hear it, but I have also noticed some of my
>course participants have started to use the term themselves over the
> >years.

Hi Steve,

Maybe one reason it raises a few eyebrows is that, while one meaning of the
prefix 'gyn' is *woman*, another is *female reproductive organ*. So,
referring to a group of women as 'gyns' could strike people as a more
sophisticated, scientific-sounding synonym for a much cruder way men
sometime refer to women.

Cheers,

Claire

Claire Hughes

P.S. Here is the on-line American Heritage entry for 'gyn'.

gyno- or gyn-
pref.
Woman: gynarchy.
Female reproductive organ; pistil: gynophore.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[From Greek gun, woman. See gwen- in Indo-European Roots.]
Source: The American Heritage« Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth
Edition
Copyright ¬ 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.

...hoping for optimism -- maybe the young women in the other post were
preferring
grrrrrrrlllls rather than girls over 'you guys'?

Of possible relevance:

http://www.houseoffun.com/action/kikizine/k-girl.html
Tamarah Cohen
e-mail: tamarahc   AT   kansai-gaidai-u.ac.jp

Steve wrote:
>>I try to use the phrase "you gyns,"

To which Claire responded:
>Maybe one reason it raises a few eyebrows is that, while one meaning of the
>prefix 'gyn' is *woman*, another is *female reproductive organ*. So,
>referring to a group of women as 'gyns' could strike people as a more
>sophisticated, scientific-sounding synonym for a much cruder way men
>sometime refer to women.

Live and learn indeed!  Is it possible that the 'reproductive
organ' usage isn't at all common outside specialist circles,
though?  Because the first place I heard 'gyns' suggested as a
potential feminist alternative to 'guys' was 15-20 years ago by
the comedian Kate Clinton, who's lesbian and a feminist.  No one
in her large, feminist audience that night seemed to pick up on
the potential pitfall, either.  As far as I could detect, the
reaction was all delighted approval.

Margaret

--
Margaret Tarbet / oneko   AT   mindspring.com
--------------------------------------
Il felino pi· piccolo F un capolavoro.
--Leonardo da Vinci

I believe "Hey You Guys!" was shouted out at the beginning of the children's
show The Electric Company...in response to Ilana Nash's Post.
Karen Kapusta-Pofahl

> I believe "Hey You Guys!" was shouted out at the beginning of the
children's
> show The Electric Company...in response to Ilana Nash's Post.
> Karen Kapusta-Pofahl

Thanks, Karen, for writing, because I was thinking the same thing last night
but you posted first.  I second this vote for "The Electric Company"--I have
fond memories of watching it before/after school on PBS as a child, and I
distinctly remember the show beginning with that memorable (if not perhaps
problematic now to me, as an adult) chant.


Jennifer L. Rexroat
Doctoral Candidate and Instructor
Gender and Women's Studies Concentration
Department of Political Science
University of Illinois at Chicago
1007 West Harrison Street (MC 276)
Chicago, IL 60607-7137
Phone:  (773) 381-5388
Fax:  (773) 381-5399
E-mail:  jrexro1   AT   uic.edu
Web:  www.uic.edu/~jrexro1

> Live and learn indeed!  Is it possible that the 'reproductive
> organ' usage isn't at all common outside specialist circles,
> though?  Because the first place I heard 'gyns' suggested as a
> potential feminist alternative to 'guys' was 15-20 years ago by
> the comedian Kate Clinton, who's lesbian and a feminist.  No one
> in her large, feminist audience that night seemed to pick up on
> the potential pitfall, either.  As far as I could detect, the
> reaction was all delighted approval.
>
> Margaret
>
> --
> Margaret Tarbet / oneko   AT   mindspring.com
>

Hi, Margaret,

Consistent with your above observation, it was my radical feminist mother who
taught me the word "gyn" to refer to a group of women, and she passed away in
1979.

Best wishes,

Steve

Steve Schacht
spschacht   AT   aol.com
http://www.nostatusquo.com/Schacht/